US Pilot labor thread 12/2-12/8

[exB717Flyer]

So...It truly does seem that any and all of that "career expectations" nonsense is precisely that ...

Ha! A ground school instructor's pep-talk to newhires hardly qualifies as career expectations. Aircraft delivery dates, newhire classes, furloughs, these are the things that constitute legitimate career expectations. If you still don't understand just re-read the Nicoalu Award. He knows more about it than you or I.

 

[Pi brat]

Ha! A ground school instructor's pep-talk to newhires hardly qualifies as career expectations. Aircraft delivery dates, newhire classes, furloughs, these are the things that constitute legitimate career expectations. If you still don't understand just re-read the Nicoalu Award. He knows more about it than you or I.

When I was hired at PI guys were checking out on the F-28 in 2 years, Boeing 3-4 years. We launched the 737-400, ordered the 767s etc. How come my track didn't follow that? That's right, a merger! You guys seem to think the AWA 7 year upgrades would go on forever.

 

[BoeingBoy]

When I was hired at PI guys were checking out on the F-28 in 2 years, Boeing 3-4 years. We launched the 737-400, ordered the 767s etc. How come my track didn't follow that? That's right, a merger!

Which is why the "I'm owed something because of my DOH" is basically meaningless...

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Which is why the "I'm owed something because of my DOH" is basically meaningless...

Jim

You miss the point. No one in this business can say they are "owed" something. But DOH and it's reasonable facsimile longevity, by definition, is something each of us has earned. It's value is self evident, readily quantifiable and not vulnerable to interpretation.

And so I am owed nothing, but I am entitled to whatever comes before the guy who has fewer cycles on him spent working for the same outfit.

As LAS is downsized, are those pilots being absorbed into PHX by relative position? It seems to be philosophically dishonest to embrace DOH as the holy grail for absolutely everything - except when it comes time to merge with another pilot group.

I agree that other metrics such as reasonable expectations, differing fleet types, etc. should be considered and addressed. But to discard DOH entirely, to subordinate it to these other factors is just plain wrong and ultimately doomed to failure.

 

[exB717Flyer]

You guys seem to think the AWA 7 year upgrades would go on forever.

What we think is irrelevent. What did Nicolau think? What will judge Wake think about the "binding" in "Binding Arbitration"? Why do you keep trying to argue that which has already been decided?

 

[BoeingBoy]

But DOH and it's reasonable facsimile longevity, by definition, is something each of us has earned.

Earned? Sorta like I've "earned" 62 birthdays?

It's value is self evident,

Didn't you illustrate how little is "self evident" from DOH - checking out in 2 years, Boeing captain in 3-4 years to...what with the merger followed by downsizing in '91. So which of those values is "self evident" from DOH - checking out quickly or backwards movement?

readily quantifiable and not vulnerable to interpretation.

Except as you said, it "quantifies" nothing about one's career progression, no matter how you "interpret" it.

And so I am owed nothing, but I am entitled to whatever comes before the guy who has fewer cycles on him spent working for the same outfit.

And nobody is trying to take that away from you (except some Empire and Shuttle folks maybe). What we're talking about is putting two "outfits" together.

As LAS is downsized, are those pilots being absorbed into PHX by relative position?

If LAS pilots are being absorbed into PHX (I'll take your word for it since I don't know) then they're being absorbed by their relative position on the West list - by their West seniority, in other words.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

What we think is irrelevent. What did Nicolau think? What will judge Wake think about the "binding" in "Binding Arbitration"? Why do you keep trying to argue that which has already been decided?

We agreed to a process which was never completed. Binding arbitration was to be followed by contract ratification. You always bring up the former and ignore the latter.

The process was not completed - contractus interuptus.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The process was not completed - contractus interuptus.

So if you sign a contract to buy a house, sign all the documents at the closing, but never move in you can demand your money back?

USAPA inherited a completed seniority integration. Not having a joint contract doesn't undo that, but just means that the integrated list can't be used yet.

Of course, USAPA is free to try to negotiate a new integrated list, and the West pilots are then free to sue USAPA for DFW.

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

So if you sign a contract to buy a house, sign all the documents at the closing, but never move in you can demand your money back?

Jim

If you find that the house was the location of a criminal act or was formally a house of ill repute, you have legal recourse, if you were not informed of such.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Earned? Sorta like I've "earned" 62 birthdays



Didn't you illustrate how little is "self evident" from DOH - checking out in 2 years, Boeing captain in 3-4 years to...what with the merger followed by downsizing in '91. So which of those values is "self evident" from DOH - checking out quickly or backwards movement?






And nobody is trying to take that away from you (except some Empire and Shuttle folks maybe). What we're talking about is putting two "outfits" together.



If LAS pilots are being absorbed into PHX (I'll take your word for it since I don't know) then they're being absorbed by their relative position on the West list - by their West seniority, in other words.

Jim

If you think you've earned nothing after 62 years then it's more a reflection of your life experience. Some go through a life and have thousands of rewarding, illuminating, unique experiences. Other's go through life and have the same experience thousands of times. Give yourself some credit.

And it doesn't matter if you're putting outfits together, or bases. Parts is parts.

 

[Phoenix]

wopr,

Sadly this interested observer feels that the "Profession" has shot itself in the foot so many times it's wearing sandals.

On thing you have to say for DOH is that it is absolute & finite. If I was hired 10/7/1980 and you were hired 10/9/1980 I'm ahead of you pure and simple. With DOH there can be no debate.

However in the case of mergers and the like it can be patently unfair. Now one can argue that very little in life is fair.

...

DOH is not fair.. in an airline or in a merger. There are plenty of better pilots who are penalized by DOH. It is not a system that rewards ability. It doesn't reward customer service. It rewards nothing. I excludes all possible discriminators of ability or performance.

The desire to add discriminators is understandable.. and problematic.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So if you sign a contract to buy a house, sign all the documents at the closing, but never move in you can demand your money back?

USAPA inherited a completed seniority integration. Not having a joint contract doesn't undo that, but just means that the integrated list can't be used yet.

Of course, USAPA is free to try to negotiate a new integrated list, and the West pilots are then free to sue USAPA for DFW.

Jim

USAPA didn't sign any contract. Furthermore, the two parties to the contract no longer exist. And the seniority integration was not complete without a ratified collective bargaining agreement - between two ALPA entities.

 

[Phoenix]

USAPA didn't sign any contract. Furthermore, the two parties to the contract no longer exist. And the seniority integration was not complete without a ratified collective bargaining agreement - between two ALPA entities.

I've seen more atheists converted by persuasion.

 

[Piedmont1984]

DOH is not fair.. in an airline or in a merger. There are plenty of better pilots who are penalized by DOH. It is not a system that rewards ability. It doesn't reward customer service. It rewards nothing. I excludes all possible discriminators of ability or performance.

The desire to add discriminators is understandable.. and problematic.

In most organizations I have observed, ability is not rewarded as much as suplication, brown nosing, ingratiating oneself with one's superiors. IOW politics.

DOH has worked very well for airline pilots. We are vetted during the qualification/interview process. We are scrutinized. Our skills are tested in many cases. Our records of achievement, experience and years of apprenticeship must meet high standards.

Once we're in, provided we successfully negotiate the constant scrutiny we receive from the company and the FAA in the form of checkrides, testing, audits and physicals, DOH governs our career progression as a line pilot.

There are separate career paths of course such as training department or management.

 

[exB717Flyer]

We agreed to a process which was never completed. Binding arbitration was to be followed by contract ratification. You always bring up the former and ignore the latter.

Your comment reminds me of the old joke about the man who murders his parents and then begs the judge for mercy since he's an orphan. Your side wrongfully terminated that process and Judge Wake fully understands this.