US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14

[traderjake]

FYI: Life is what happens while you're making other plans, and the vast sense of personal entitlement shown here's nothing short of unbelievable...

Life is what happens while you post 2,973 messages since May 8, 2007.

Yes, the sense of entitlement of my coworkers on the East is unbelievable.,

 

[Eastisleast]

"It's far, far better if someone out east who's been stuck in a right seat for, say....20 years or so, while working and sacrificing to keep this operation alive.."

"This"operation dosen't exist anymore, if that was what was going on at your rusty airline before this merger thats your problem. What was going on at my airline was 5 year upgrades. I don't want to and should not have to pay for that....if you want to share the pain give us half your paltry pension....didn't think so. I was talking to snoop anyway!! Have you read the nic award yet EastUs...or do you think it is still a flush bid...please inform all your misinformed bros and sisters that it isn't and get educated on what is going on and quit trying to tell me what I want with this nightmare of a merger. It ain't your seat BTW.

 

[Megasnoop]

ok, lifetime may be a bit dramatic, but still way more years than any of us had planned or on the track to.

the problem with one-sided garbage from either side is it promotes polarization. We got baiters on both sides. I went non-ALPO after LOA 93 and anti-ALPO after NIC. look how long DFRs take. by the time its over, youll own the seats anyway. This furlough thing isnt fair but legal as long as we stay separate. If youd taken the Wye River deal your "save dave" had 400 below him and no west furloughs. That assumes we had a contract, which you guys would have voted against because the NIC was gone, thats another story.

Least, USAPA found a democratic and RLA legal way to get rid of ALPO. Without the NIC, that wouldnt happened. Mess with my retirement? ho hum. Mess with my seniority? DE-CERT, DE-CERT! USAPA wasnt a party to the NIC. According to your attorney the NIC was negotiating tool. You refuse to recognize any of the above facts. Thats why your guys furloughed more than ours. The more you bury your heads the more you screw yourselves.

With your famous conditions and restrictions, fences...it would be a really long time.

Again your making a leap without knowing what the fence and conditions will be. You just encourage counter-rants.

Since you broke down the age thing so perfectly why the need for lifetime fences some of you group love to talk about so much? I would be a lifetime f/o if we are fenced forever....we all know that phx will have very little growth.

Our NAC and BPR will decide, not a chat board. "Lifetime fences" is just one more "bit dramatic" that fans the flames. PHX might end up like our old PSA bases in SFO, LAX or SAN. The sooner this is resolved with a single contract, the sooner you guys stop getting wacked by base downsizing. snooper

 

[prechilill]

Least, USAPA found a democratic and RLA legal way to get rid of ALPO.


Again your making a leap without knowing what the fence and conditions will be. You just encourage counter-rants.



Our NAC and BPR will decide, not a chat board. "Lifetime fences" is just one more "bit dramatic" that fans the flames.

All this talk about fences, DOH, BPR, only making it worse for yourself blah blah blah. Gibberish! Like a bunch of little squirrels talking about the nuts they are going to find on a nut hunt- USAPA is cornered! You guys are now trying to sell us on the "DFR takes a long, long time" BS. Most of the claims we have in the que don't involve DFR... JUST PASS that DOH seniority list over to the company and then see the real fireworks begin. We are still in the opening act, bud.

Seniority integration is completed. The judge will give you guys a lesson in contract law. Do you have your ears listening, eyes opened and mouth shut? Good. You are about to get schooled.

 

[prechilill]

Snoop, as your dream of cramming DOH down our throats falls apart, here is a prep course for you before going to the judge:


LAWSUITS FILED AGAINST USAPA

LAWSUITS HAVE BEEN FILED BY THE FORMER AMERICA WEST PILOTS TO SEEK LEGAL RELIEF FROM OUR BARGAINING AGENT AND THE COMPANY.

AN INFORMATIONAL MEETING IS SCHEDULED IN PHX FOR SEPTEMBER 12th AT THE CROWN PLAZA HOTEL LOCATED AT 4300 EAST WASHINGTON STREET FROM 12PM TO 4PM. GUEST SPEAKERS WILL BE OUR LEGAL COUNSEL FROM THE LAWFIRM OF SHUGHART, THOMPSON & KILROY P.C.

WE URGE ALL FORMER AMERICA WEST AIRLINE PILOTS TO ATTEND. PILOT I.D. IS REQUIRED FOR ADMITTANCE.

FOR DIRECTIONS AND COMPLIMENTARY AIRPORT TRANSPORTATION INFORMATION, PLEASE CALL THE CROWN PLAZA HOTEL AT 602-273-7778.


LEONIDAS LLC

 

[Semper Fi]

Where does it say Date of Hire? ah yes it doesn't, but leave it to an eastie to make it look like it does.

Fodase,

The 4th Whereas.

WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and

Semper Fi

 

[Semper Fi]

Sorry to rain on your parade, especially as a newbie, but this is pure ALPO pie-in-the-sky. Take a look at last week's thread where it was discussed. No way a union is going to tell a company who to hire. Also no way ALPO is going to dictate a national list to APA, IPA, SWAPA, NPA, IBT or any other union or non-union pilot group. snooper

Megasnoop,

No harm done, I am just reporting the news! I realize it is pie-in-the-sky.

Semper Fi

 

[tazz]

" Really?..Kindly cite even one example in support of that notion sir....?? As a self declared insider of sorts; Perhaps you've some legitmate reasons for believing that. What are they? What were any negotiable positions that might have found acceptance within your ranks? What was the problem with the Wye River proposals? = Not enough for you? given all that "good faith" that you claim was present; What actually would have worked for you?

We started by not demanding stapling the east. Prior to merger consumation east and west were well aware that chapter 7 was in east's future. Your side was very contrite until the merger was actuallly signed, then the DOH mantra came out DESPITE agreeing in our first meeting that you woundn't demand that if we didn't demand staple. Each and every meeting our side came prepared to truly negotiate in good faith. I need not give you all of the details of each meeting being that your own side never did. I will say, however, that LOS was not an original east idea. East scoffed at that one until Wye River. And, eastus, let me say AGAIN that after going through arbitration was NOT the time to negotiate. Nicolau even gave your guys ANOTHER chance to rethink that DOH position but your guys wouldn't budge.

We represented good faith at the appropriate time, now we're in court because the east could not honor the arbitrator's decision in good faith. You willingly agreed to a process knowing the risks. As a matter of fact your MC, having been through mergers before, kept reminding ours of the risks of arbitration and that decisions were final and binding. Good faith? Please!

 

[EastUS]

We started by not demanding stapling the east. Good faith? Please!

So..absent all the self-righteous BS (if even at all possible) ..What actually was your "best offer"?

Prechilled: "Seniority integration is completed. The judge will give you guys a lesson in contract law. Do you have your ears listening, eyes opened and mouth shut? Good. You are about to get schooled." I won't even begin to suggest your ever dropping all the self-righteous BS, as I realize that's an utterly impossible notion to even imagine. Just call us all after any/all cases are actually finished. So far..You haven't been right even once, over the course of more than a year now.

 

[tazz]

Hard work on the Merger Committee? According to Tazz, he spent only 4 months on the committtee, quitting because of their looney Macalvena.

When did I ever say four months? I stated the first year. You guys are so good at making up facts. Let me give you an example and keep in mind my response to eastus above...

When our MC's first met, just after the "merger" was actually signed your MC started talking DOH because our side now could not jeapordize the "merger"

Our side did not discuss DOH because they were so surprised your side would mention it after agreeing not to. The west was silent because they needed to regroup.

Your MC, however, returned to the east and produced a memo proclaiming discussions of DOH were ongoing and progress was made. When we saw that one we couldn't f....... believe it. They were disingenuous with us and outright lied to their own people. You guys are clones of each other.

 

[tazz]

So..absent all the self-righteous BS (if even at all possible) ..What actually was your "best offer"?

Ask your own people, they owe you the truth.

 

[TBONEJ4J]

Megasnoop,

No harm done, I am just reporting the news! I realize it is pie-in-the-sky.

Semper Fi

Pie-in-the-sky, Yes. But should act as cover and a trigger to change the ALPA C&BL policy for merger and fragmentation to straight DOH.

The BOD meeting is imminent and when it's done there will be no National Seniority List - but I bet the merger and fragmentation policy will be greatly simplified. Just a little too late. :down:

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Sep 10 2008, 08:47 AM)
So..absent all the self-righteous BS (if even at all possible) ..What actually was your "best offer"?

Ask your own people, they owe you the truth.

Whereas you clearly don't owe any truth as regards any actual west proposal then?..Was the best west effort at any compromise at all, truly so lopsided that you feel that you can't even put it up in public for reasons of how absurdly selfish it really was? OK then.... I guess we're done here with that particular BS. I suppose we'll all have to leave it with your inherent nobility in not "demanding" stapling...and simply make estimations of just how "reasonable" your bunch truly was from that awesomely demonstrated generosity of spirit. 😉

 

[ussnark]

As a former member of the west Merger Committee I know that the west negotiated in good faith. The east jumped on the DOH mantra two weeks after the "merger" was consumated and NEVER backed off. Any compromise offered by the east was subsequent to tha arbitrator's decision. Well after the appropriate time for negotiation.

Actually, you do not have your facts straight.

Any DOH/LOS must have conditions and restrictions. ALPA told your committee that, more than once. If you were not paying attention, that is your problem.

and, all I was saying that it was in the west's interest to hold at a "relative seniority" fable, with no compromise. You could do no worse than what you had.

BTW, what "compromise" did the west offer?

 

[ussnark]

The west pilots had everything to loose, a lifetime in the right seat just because of a merger.

You cannot acknowledge that the "old FOs" in the east will be gone in eight years and, at the same time, assert that the west pilots would have a "lifetime in the right seat". You would have to have a split personality to do that.

BTW, asserting, as you did, that DOH would put the westies in the right seat for the rest of their careers simply highlights that the "nic", was indeed, a winning lottery ticket and therefore, by giving one side such a obvious and disproportionate "win", would be untenable under the rather weak ALPA merger guidelines, would it not?