US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14

[fodase]

You couldn't be more wrong reading that case and how it compares to the present situation. You might want to go back and look why the case was brought against ALPA and the fact that the circumstances at present have played out 180 degrees opposite of what transpired then.

Yes the case is different but the findings apply.

"That the system ALPA has created places a good deal of power in the hand of arbitrators is not a sign of "unfairness" in the limited sense relevant to evaluating claims of breach of the duty of fair representation, especially since the alternative would be to encourage continuing and acrimonious disputes among workers by opening seniority to continual revision. It is not in the interest of organized labor to incite workers to fight among themselves over job rights. Nor is it in the workers' own interest, behind the veil of ignorance, that is, before they know whether they have been the winner or loser of the arbitration. Here as elsewhere finality serves important social purposes and we certainly cannot pronounce ALPA unfair for giving the arbitrators' determination of seniority as much finality as it has done."

and

"We need not decide whether, if the plaintiffs and their allies ever succeed in ousting ALPA in favor of a union not pledged to defend the arbitrators' award, the matter of seniority can be reopened in collective bargaining negotiations with the airline, or otherwise revisited. The plaintiffs say the award became a provision of the collective bargaining agreement and expired when that agreement expired. We leave aside the merit of this contention beyond noting that an attempt by a majority of the employees in a collective bargaining unit to gang up against a minority of employees in the fashion apparently envisaged by the plaintiffs could itself be thought a violation of the duty of fair representation by the union that the majority used as its tool. Alvey v. General Electric Co., 622 F.2d 1279, 1289-90 (7th Cir. 1980)."

 

[fatherabraham]

USAPA and the East Sicken me as a US Citizen and a lifelong union member.

Your post make for one successful Dispute Resolution . You are "sicken" and I therefore will sleep well tonight.
Good Night
FA

 

[EastUS]

No. Of course not. Please stop insulting my intelligence.

Having ready your rather "interesting" post, and in fullest acknowledgement of your notions that alpa, in any way shape or form, represents an actual trade union...I'm not fully certain that any outside assisstance via additonal insulting is likely to prove of any real use therein.

 

[trunion]

I Agree with you 90%. However, that does not give USAPA carte blache. If ALPA tried to be a "bulldozer" as you claim, then USAPA is trying, (fruitlessly) to be the "big bang". When I was at US Air we worked under the Parity +1% concept. Nobody hated ALPA, there was never a drive to get rid of them. Only when the Easts legal obligations and commitments became distasteful, (to themselves) was ALPA thrown off the property and subsequently blamed for years of perceived neglect. Everything you claim to hate about ALPA in your post can be magnified many times over by the beligerant and unchecked antics of USAPA. ALPA was then, and is now, the guy you see in the mirror. No amount of finger pointing, no bag sticker, and no fake union is going to change that fact. USAPA fools no one. I was there. Lyle Hogg was my BCP in Dulles at the time.

You are wrong about USAPA. They are instituting the core values of unionism. So far they have done a superior job of protecting our pilots.

Do you regret your decision to leave USAirways... Is that where the bitterness comes from? Are you at the bottom of another air carrier's seniority list. Just wondering, because you come off as frustrated and angry. Will implementation of the nic list help you sleep better when contemplating your career choice?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I Agree with you 90%. However, that does not give USAPA carte blache. If ALPA tried to be a "bulldozer" as you claim, then USAPA is trying, (fruitlessly) to be the "big bang". When I was at US Air we worked under the Parity +1% concept. Nobody hated ALPA, there was never a drive to get rid of them. Only when the Easts legal obligations and commitments became distasteful, (to themselves) was ALPA thrown off the property and subsequently blamed for years of perceived neglect. Everything you claim to hate about ALPA in your post can be magnified many times over by the beligerant and unchecked antics of USAPA. ALPA was then, and is now, the guy you see in the mirror. No amount of finger pointing, no bag sticker, and no fake union is going to change that fact. USAPA fools no one. I was there. Lyle Hogg was my BCP in Dulles at the time.

ALPA isn't the bulldozer, you are a bulldozer operator. I.E., a bus driver, blue shirt and all but ALPA perpetuates an atmosphere where you identify, with the color of the stripes on your uniform, the paint on your aircraft or the name in the logo, not the actual job you do. If such was the case, one pilot group would not look down on any other or feel a higher sense of entitlement because of the company the work for or its specific economics at any give time. Those things are irrelevant to the time you have in the union and class and craft but you know that kind of thinking is way to blue collar and communistic for an airline pilot, especially an ALPA one to accept. So, IMHO, you are the one that needs looking in the mirror. There was a strong drive to replace ALPA in 1993, because of a concessionary agreement that wasn't voted on, giving back the best duty rigs in the industry among other things. Parity +1% was not a panacea and was designed as cost neutral contract, or possibly a cut as US Airways enjoyed the best contract in the industry, the same year the company netted $1 billion dollars in profit. Many were not happy with it, and of course the union's performance was disastrous post 9/11, with knee jerk reactions, no intestinal fortitude, denial of membership vote with the retirement all under the excellent and prodding influence of ALPA national E F &A advisers.

ALPA and its lack of trade unionism and weak ineffectual leadership is why things took the course they did. Its why the job is worth half of what it was twenty years ago and pilots are working 50% more. It's done such a job at fragmenting the profession and ceding enormous leverage to airline management, that it will never be restored to what it was. ALPA, nor USAPA can accomplish that monumental task at this point, especially because of that mirror you are looking in. All USAPA can accomplish is to act like a trade union and provide efficient services with all of its resources geared to its members. I exited this profession early this year and work in the "Capitalistic World." Sadly, it has a lot more ethics and is a lot more consistent than the ALPA world. If you think that ALPA pin is ever going to get you close to what the profession accomplished in the past, and could have if ALPA was a trade union and acted with national unity, you are fooling yourself. It's sad when you can double a 25 year airline captain's salary by managing an exterminating company with a dozen locations.

 

[Res Judicata]

You are wrong about USAPA. They are instituting the core values of unionism. So far they have done a superior job of protecting our pilots.

Do you regret your decision to leave USAirways... Is that where the bitterness comes from? Are you at the bottom of another air carrier's seniority list. Just wondering, because you come off as frustrated and angry. Will implementation of the nic list help you sleep better when contemplating your career choice?

"Core values of Unionism" Like what, threatening to fire thousands of non paying pilots for services unavailable and un-rendered? What does a West guy get for his dues money? Nothing. What does an east guy get? Nothing. More LOA 93 and embarrassing ads in USA Today. I guess they get to pay for frivolous lawsuits filed by a bunch of angry vindictive little trolls all the while said trolls stop at nothing to staple 85% of AMW in flagrant violation of common sense and US law. Which of these is the "core value" you're referring to?

I never acknowledged any of the three letters for recall. I let that period of my life simply die out. I packed up the wife and family and moved on. I have no recall rights at US Air anymore. I made the decision to move on and not look back in early 02 when it was clear to even the casual observer that US Air wasn't a place anyone young enough would choose to be. Not bitter in the slightest. Actually, I've been very lucky since then

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Yes the case is different but the findings apply.

"That the system ALPA has created places a good deal of power in the hand of arbitrators is not a sign of "unfairness" in the limited sense relevant to evaluating claims of breach of the duty of fair representation, especially since the alternative would be to encourage continuing and acrimonious disputes among workers by opening seniority to continual revision. It is not in the interest of organized labor to incite workers to fight among themselves over job rights. Nor is it in the workers' own interest, behind the veil of ignorance, that is, before they know whether they have been the winner or loser of the arbitration. Here as elsewhere finality serves important social purposes and we certainly cannot pronounce ALPA unfair for giving the arbitrators' determination of seniority as much finality as it has done."

and

"We need not decide whether, if the plaintiffs and their allies ever succeed in ousting ALPA in favor of a union not pledged to defend the arbitrators' award, the matter of seniority can be reopened in collective bargaining negotiations with the airline, or otherwise revisited. The plaintiffs say the award became a provision of the collective bargaining agreement and expired when that agreement expired. We leave aside the merit of this contention beyond noting that an attempt by a majority of the employees in a collective bargaining unit to gang up against a minority of employees in the fashion apparently envisaged by the plaintiffs could itself be thought a violation of the duty of fair representation by the union that the majority used as its tool. Alvey v. General Electric Co., 622 F.2d 1279, 1289-90 (7th Cir. 1980)."

The arbitrators award never became part of the collective bargaining agreement and never will. The matter of combined seniority is still an open matter to be determined between the union and the company at the point a new combined collective bargaining agreement is reached. The union has changed along with the mechanism of reaching a bargaining position on integrated seniority.

The Air Wisconsin MEC was placed into receivership, the award was codified with a joint collective bargaining agreement, and the subsequent attempts of decertification failed.

You are making USAPA's case by using this case. In fact that case would have been strong motivation for East pilots to act prior to a joint contract under ALPA as they did.

 

[Res Judicata]

USAPA and the East Sicken me as a US Citizen and a lifelong union member.

Your post make for one successful Dispute Resolution . You are "sicken" and I therefore will sleep well tonight.
Good Night
FA

I'm perceiving some confusion on your part. Let me help.


sicken
One entry found.

sicken


Main Entry:
sick·en Listen to the pronunciation of sicken
Pronunciation:
\ˈsi-kən\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
sick·ened; sick·en·ing Listen to the pronunciation of sickening \ˈsi-kə-niŋ, ˈsik-niŋ\
Date:
13th century

intransitive verb 1 : to become sick 2 : to become weary or satiated transitive verb 1 : to make sick 2 : to cause revulsion in <their prejudice sickens me>
— sick·en·er Listen to the pronunciation of sickener

 

[Megasnoop]

WOW! A new weeek and two new "true-blue-unionists" coming out of the woodwork with some of the most uninformed and proposterous comments weve read since the "Chil" started his non-stop posting.

I'm a pilot, former East, now working for a Major Airline represented by ALPA. I've been lurking between websites for a long time. I've had it with the East and their blind arrogance. That's all. No conspiracy, no lies, no agenda other than calling it how I see it. It's really not that complicated.

Res, you dont work here, so why do you think any of us care what you think? Go hound your own forum with your ALPA-mania. We really don't care if youve had it with us or not. No agenda? YGTBKM. Your not credible. Stick to lurking.

ALPA has it's short comings to be sure. No argument here. However, USAPA doesn't share a single strand of DNA with any known trade union. It is in lock-step with tyrannical dictatorships. There alone lies the rub.

IBT, IAM, AFA, CWA, UTU, UAW, UFW, UFCW, SEIU, ATU, AFGE, AFSA, AGSCME, AFT, APWU, BRS, TWU, ATU, AAAA, NALC...What do ALL of them have in common with USAPA? ALL have DOH in their Constitutions! I guess their all tyrannical dictatorships. But ALPA? No DOH there. So when you talk about not having a single strand of union DNA, look at who rejects the fundamental UNION concept of last-hired, first-fired.

"There alone lies the rub." How Shakesperean. Your quite the scholar.

Then theres the Fod:

the protection of the 6 junior easties out west, the fact that doh is not applied to east pilots only westies, etc.

Whoa, big fella! The "East/West 6" decision was Parker, not USAPA. And you dont get it. They were furloughed out west and forced back east and are exercising their DOH seniority back there under the terms of LOA 93 and the TA. The last Training center exchange between Parker and "Captain T-Shirt" show how little you understand the issue. That guy made a fool of himself and every west pilot 10 minutes.

I believe that usapa is unfair, but I have to accept it, just like you will accept the Nic.

Now you lost me. If we have to accept the NIC, then USAPA will still be unfair?

Because a federal judgment becomes the "law", and is enforceable up to and including jail. Right now we have a contract between two parties, one of the parties is reneging on it and has repeatedly publicly, on video and in writing stated they would do everything in their power to not abide by it, and to harm the other party in the contract. You should familiarize yourself with the case, where a larger group of pilots, unhappy with a seniority arbitration, tried to staple a minority group. It didn't work.

Now you've really lost me. "Jail" time? For whom? DFRs are civil proceding. And no, USAPA didnt reneg on anything. USAPA was NOT one of the "two parties." It was ALPO that screwed you. They were the CBA. They could have forced implementation of the NIC and the contract Buttkovic was carrying around on his computer. But they didnt. When you think of DFRing someone, you ought to look at who already screwed you, not who you think might screw you in the future.

The Air Wisconsin case? Give us a break. Nothing to do with USAPA and DOH. In fact, it helps USAPA make its case. You need to reread for understanding, your own quote:

The plaintiffs are unable to explain why, if ALPA is oppressing a majority of Air Wisconsin's pilots, the pilots have twice failed to vote ALPA out as their representative for collective bargaining.

Let me make it simple for you Fod. TWICE, the minority tried to replace ALPO. TWICE, they failed. The judge ruled for "the tyrany of the majority." He totally rejected the disgruntled minority. snooper

 

[fodase]

WOW! A new weeek and two new "true-blue-unionists" coming out of the woodwork with some of the most uninformed and proposterous comments weve read since the "Chil" started his non-stop posting.




Res, you dont work here, so why do you think any of us care what you think? Go hound your own forum with your ALPA-mania. We really don't care if youve had it with us or not. No agenda? YGTBKM. Your not credible. Stick to lurking.




IBT, IAM, AFA, CWA, UTU, UAW, UFW, UFCW, SEIU, ATU, AFGE, AFSA, AGSCME, AFT, APWU, BRS, TWU, ATU, AAAA, NALC...What do ALL of them have in common with USAPA? ALL have DOH in their Constitutions! I guess their all tyrannical dictatorships. But ALPA? No DOH there. So when you talk about not having a single strand of union DNA, look at who rejects the fundamental UNION concept of last-hired, first-fired.

Only problem you have here is that alpa was your union, you agreed to abide by your union's seniority system (just like the new law btw) it was your union until after the merger was completed and 'gasp', it was one single company when you used your greater numbers to try and get out from under the Nic.

"There alone lies the rub." How Shakesperean. Your quite the scholar.

Then theres the Fod:



Whoa, big fella! The "East/West 6" decision was Parker, not USAPA. And you dont get it. They were furloughed out west and forced back east and are exercising their DOH seniority back there under the terms of LOA 93 and the TA. The last Training center exchange between Parker and "Captain T-Shirt" show how little you understand the issue. That guy made a fool of himself and every west pilot 10 minutes.

Once again you show your ignorance, tell me how many openings your last bid had? and then explain why after the bid an extra 6 east pilots have to hit the streets? Doug doesn't give a damn, usapa requested that 6 pilots from the west be allowed back east with no new openings while allowing seniot both by doh and nick west pilots to be fuloughed

Now you lost me. If we have to accept the NIC, then USAPA will still be unfair?

Usapa won't matter, it will implode.

Now you've really lost me. "Jail" time? For whom? DFRs are civil proceding. And no, USAPA didnt reneg on anything. USAPA was NOT one of the "two parties." It was ALPO that screwed you. They were the CBA. They could have forced implementation of the NIC and the contract Buttkovic was carrying around on his computer. But they didnt. When you think of DFRing someone, you ought to look at who already screwed you, not who you think might screw you in the future.

Dfr on alpa is gone as there is a 6 month provision. Jail time? you bet, once a judge makes a decision and you refuse to comply, you are in contempt , and yes if usapa leadership refuses the judgement they will go to jail. As for the "two Parties" you speak of east and west pilots, not usapa or alpa, yes let that sink in, this was a contract between east and west pilots. think of it this way, if you give someone power of attorney and they buy a house for you for 300k, you can't come back and say that the deal was between your power of attorney and the seller, it was in fact between you and the seller. Please read the lawsuit, every east pilot is being personally sued for breached contract.

The Air Wisconsin case? Give us a break. Nothing to do with USAPA and DOH. In fact, it helps USAPA make its case. You need to reread for understanding, your own quote:



Let me make it simple for you Fod. TWICE, the minority tried to replace ALPO. TWICE, they failed. The judge ruled for "the tyrany of the majority." He totally rejected the disgruntled minority. snooper

Well then, you have nothing to worry about, your victory is assured.

 

[LSS]

Here is the case I was referencing on my earlier post, see if the situation is similar. Funny that usapa never told you guys about this precedent setting case.


UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT
No. 89-3350
June 14, 1990, Argued�€â€￾July 30, 1990, Decided

The plaintiffs are unable to explain why, if ALPA is oppressing a majority of Air Wisconsin's pilots, the pilots have twice failed to vote ALPA out as their representative for collective bargaining."

Certainly isn't the case here... ALPA was tossed for a multitude of reasons, only one of which was the Nic...

 

[fodase]

Certainly isn't the case here... ALPA was tossed for a multitude of reasons, only one of which was the Nic...

Ok then, you win! Don't worry all the other stuff about "final and binding" and a majority willingly violating a contract for their own gain won't apply, as it will be clear to any court that usapa wasn't formed to get rid of the Nic., no sir all the video, and written evidence including the east alpa minutes withdrawing from jnc to avoid the nic., separate operations forever, and the lawsuit the east filed against individual west pilots to vacate the Nic. are just a figment of the west's imagination.

 

[LSS]

Ok then, you win! Don't worry all the other stuff about "final and binding" and a majority willingly violating a contract for their own gain won't apply, as it will be clear to any court that usapa wasn't formed to get rid of the Nic., no sir all the video, and written evidence including the east alpa minutes withdrawing from jnc to avoid the nic., separate operations forever, and the lawsuit the east filed against individual west pilots to vacate the Nic. are just a figment of the west's imagination.

What is it that you're not understanding about the West's own legal counsel's statement... the "Nic List" was ALPA's bargaining position... just like... we want wide-body captains to be paid $600/hr ( theoretically speaking) which the company can agree to accept, negotiate or reject? ALPA is gone... (hopefully forever).. there is no joint contract under the auspices of ALPA to support the NIC... and even if ALPO had survived, do you think for one nanosecond that the east would have ratified any contract that contained the Nic?

I'm tired of hearing about the tyranny of the East majority... Okay so you must like all those special interest Washington/suits/legal eagle/lobbyist throwing millions at our Senate and Congress members, controlling the direction of this country, all while the collective will of the majority of the people in this country is being totally ignored. Yeah... that's morally right! Oh the evil majority.

The West has the perception that the East is out to screw them because the East has been fighting the Nic since day one and USAPA's CB&L uses a DOH basis for seniority integrations. But short of the furlough situation, which by the way was the company's decision using the individual West and East's own seniority lists, how has USAPA harmed any West pilot to date? USAPA has stated countless times that the conditions and restrictions would protect all pilot's flying.

Sadly, and I mean this sincerely, the West has NO VOICE in what direction this union takes because THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BECOME INVOLVED!

 

[prechilill]

Of Course, How about my W2s, K1s, LLC Articles of Organization, Business Licenses, 401k statements, 1099s, 1031 exchanges, my SSN, Tax Returns, address, My employee number, My mothers Maiden name? Sure.

No omnipotent dictatorship mentality here.

I was furloughed after 9-11 from US Air and moved on with my life shortly there after. That's all you need to know.

Where did you go to law school? Your posts are awesome!

 

[prechilill]

The West has the perception that the East is out to screw them because the East has been fighting the Nic since day one and USAPA's CB&L uses a DOH basis for seniority integrations. Sadly, and I mean this sincerely, the West has NO VOICE in what direction this union takes because THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BECOME INVOLVED!

We do not need to be a voice in your gang because we are taking your transgressions against us to the courts. Everything you guys have thrown at us these past three years is coming back your way. We are all pleased out west to return so many favors you have thrown at us "punks, rookies, cowboys" out west.

Here is another piece of the puzzle for you all ostriches out east. Army of Leonidas was created because of you and every USAPA clone wanting something which wasn't theirs to begin with. We chose Leonidas after careful consideration because he best represents one underlying principle that many of us on the west stand for: We will fight you greedy USAPA tyrants out east to the very end, we will fight for what is ours and what we believe in and not let you steal anything that we have worked so hard for at America West. And we will all do this until the last west pilot is standing. If you succeed in destroying our careers out west because of your superior numbers, remember one thing- your numerical superiority is temporary-- we will return all favors you heathens bestow on us. As the proverb says "what goes around comes around".
One day you may figure out there are two sides to consider instead of just yours. Until then, we on the west have figured out there is no point in dealing with the likes of you, Bradford and the rest of you all. The Federal Courts will take care of things now.