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US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14

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I know that you all still operate off of two seniority lists but the principle of letting some of the "5200 mainline US Airways pilots" that USAPA represents hit the streets out of seniority order without so much as a fight seems like a failure.

Actually..That's all just so much complete and utter BS as regards the furlough issue. My understanding is that a major greivance regarding scope violation per the larger RJ equipment's underway, and a temporary restraining order against any/all furloughs is being assembled and pursued as well...but hey..jump right in with whatever fantasies of "failure" it suits you to do. 🙄 What are you expecting?...The instant waving of some magic wand that'll make all things right as of yesterday?...or at least..this very second?

To presume that no "fight" is taking place shows a degree of willfull naivete,or bizzarely formed agenda, that transcends even the most extreme boundaries of rational thought.

Management's just perfectly fine with putting any amount of west pilots on the street that it suits them to do. It's only the evil, much despised, never-to-be-trusted Union that's actually fighting against that happening. Not some AWAPPA BS, not some mighty, roaring "Leonidas" bunch of fools......
 
My question is what does your group do with new flying? Beijing and Tel Aviv (when and if they start flying) are routes that exist with the help of the synergy of a merged national network. What is the fair way to staff such growth? Especially since not one side "owned" that flying before the merger.

Lurkmeister. GOOD point. And after we have a single contract, WITH BASE FENCES, you guys should get the PHX-China flights. Well get the PHL-Tel Aviv routes.

Also from reading the complaint filed I don't understand why USAPA, who is such a big proponent of trade unionism and seniority, has not made any issue with the fact that senior pilots are furloughed before new hires.

because were still working off of 2 separate seniority lists, lurkster.

So which is it in the unions view? Two separate pilot groups or common carrier status as the NMB has declared? I know that you all still operate off of two seniority lists but the principle of letting some of the "5200 mainline US Airways pilots" that USAPA represents hit the streets out of seniority order without so much as a fight seems like a failure.

Lurkster, by jove, youve got it! 2 separate seniority lists. End of that story. But I admit, you guys took the brunt of the furloughs. Classic whipsaw, but bad yield = more reductions. Guess Parker could have just rerouted the flying with you guys doing more East coast stuff, but he didnt. USAPA better get with a TA dispute on that. snooper
 
Actually..That's all just so much complete and utter BS as regards the furlough issue. My understanding is that a major greivance regarding scope violation per the larger RJ equipment's underway, and a temporary restraining order against any/all furloughs is being assembled and pursued as well...but hey..jump right in with whatever fantasies of "failure" it suits you to do. 🙄 What are you expecting?...The instant waving of some magic wand that'll make all things right as of yesterday?...or at least..this very second?

To presume that no "fight" is taking place shows a degree of willfull naivete,or bizzarely formed agenda, that transcends even the most extreme boundaries of rational thought.


Well good job with that "temporary restraining order against any/all furloughs" considering that there are already pilots laid off on Sept. 4th and another group leaving in three weeks. :down:



Lurkmeister. GOOD point. And after we have a single contract, WITH BASE FENCES, you guys should get the PHX-China flights. Well get the PHL-Tel Aviv routes.

You mean the west guys, not me.

So in your opinion, no matter what growth may occur because of the collective health of the two companies merging, your base determines your fate. I don't believe that AWA would have ever flown from PHX-PEK so how would it be fair to restrict that route to just one third of the pilots to bid. (I don't think your airline will see that in the near future anyway).
 
Well good job with that "temporary restraining order against any/all furloughs" considering that there are already pilots laid off on Sept. 4th and another group leaving in three weeks. :down:


EastUS: "What are you expecting?...The instant waving of some magic wand that'll make all things right as of yesterday?...or at least..this very second?"

I'm all ears as to any and all "brilliant' suggstions you may personally have to offer therein?....Nothing? :blink: ....Nothing at all then? What a surprise. Get a clue..or better yet =a life..if at all possible 🙄
 
boeingtamer,

WOW an east pilot who thinks the NIC could work with some financial incentive! great post and look what you started, an entertaining thread indeed.

Res Judica,

Im a west pilot and I think most likely so are you. Great stuff though!

Eastus,

I am not a bulldozer driver and hope to never take my a/c thru any mud. but I may be likened to say a union plumber

Westpuslot,

I told you before you name is an anagram for "lost up west" and said that is where USAPA is heading. I can be more specific now, Its the superior court of arizona, in maricopa county, judge Bethany Hicks presiding. oh and by the way did you know your name is an anagram for "swept soul".

Machtuck,

did you used to be Elixir?

Everyone else,

I think boeingtamer is correct in basic principals but wrong in some specifics. for example, I am 45 years old, I have given 7 jumpseat rides to east pilots in the last year and a half. 2 were younger than me, 3 were my age ( within + - 2 years) and 2 were noticeably older. I have encountered many more on the line and the demographic does not seem that different from the west group except the west does have some with more time left than most. My point is this notion that the west can make it up later in 5 to 10 years is just not reallistic as there will be no time left to make anything up for most of us out here.

Also, I would be willing to concede that the NIC more closely favored the west argument, but to say it is downright unfair is pure bs, DOH on the other hand, as mentioned by Lakefield, Parker, Nicolau,2 Pilot Nuetrals, the West negotiating comittee, simply will not happen restrictions or not.

Finally, I live and work in Phoenix, but I would like to see a simple resolution similar to boeingtamers, without fencing and restrictions, that way the commuters I have been carrying can work in Phoenix and our cross country commuters can work in CLT and I can carry Delta and Northwest pilots up front listening to their stories of how unreasonable the other side is being and say to myself, "man am I glad that is not happening here".
 
EastUS: "What are you expecting?...The instant waving of some magic wand that'll make all things right as of yesterday?...or at least..this very second?"

I'm all ears as to any and all "brilliant' suggstions you may personally have to offer therein?....Nothing? :blink: ....Nothing at all then? What a surprise. Get a clue..or better yet =a life..if at all possible 🙄


Well since instant waving of magic wands doesn't work in a slow judicial system, then my "brilliant" suggestion would have been for your union to maybe file you supposed "temporary restraining order against any/all furloughs" before a furlough even walked out the door.

Rational thought says that if you want to prevent something from happening you may want to act before said event occurs :blink:

"Get a life"?
Wow is that all you can come up with?
 
boeingtamer,

WOW an east pilot who thinks the NIC could work with some financial incentive! great post and look what you started, an entertaining thread indeed.

Eastus,

I am not a bulldozer driver and hope to never take my a/c thru any mud. but I may be likened to say a union plumber

I have given 7 jumpseat rides to east pilots in the last year and a half. 2 were younger than me, 3 were my age ( within + - 2 years) and 2 were noticeably older. I have encountered many more on the line and the demographic does not seem that different from the west group except the west does have some with more time left than most.

I'm thinking that either you missed the inherent sarcasm in BTamer's posting, or are inserting your own, with equivalent tongue-in-cheek. 😉

I mentioned nothing about bulldozers myself, and also hope to never drive any aircraft throught the mud. I've no arrogance sufficient to ever imagine that I'm at all bulletproof though.

Many thanks for your professional courtesy with your jumpseat sir. Regardless of all this mess; I also see no reason to personally abuse each other, and will always offer hospitality to any west people myself.
 
Ok so I am listening to both sides of the argument and I understand the thought process behind the "you keep what is yours and I'll keep what is mine" mentality.

My question is what does your group do with new flying? Beijing and Tel Aviv (when and if they start flying) are routes that exist with the help of the synergy of a merged national network. What is the fair way to staff such growth? Especially since not one side "owned" that flying before the merger.

Also from reading the complaint filed I don't understand why USAPA, who is such a big proponent of trade unionism and seniority, has not made any issue with the fact that senior pilots are furloughed before new hires. So which is it in the unions view? Two separate pilot groups or common carrier status as the NMB has declared? I know that you all still operate off of two seniority lists but the principle of letting some of the "5200 mainline US Airways pilots" that USAPA represents hit the streets out of seniority order without so much as a fight seems like a failure.

Good observations, "Lurk-A-Lot"

It appears from your post that you are neither a west or an east pilot, so here it is in a nutshell. You ask very approriate questions, which have complex answers. I will try and keep it short and to the point.

Prior to the USAPA effort to thwart the binding seniority arbitration, there was (and still is) the understanding the pilots of both airlines would be integrated. A Transition Agreement was reached, between the pilot groups and company to address your first question. It was to prevent a whipsaw of pilot groups against each other, and protect established flying as the groups worked towards a single seniority list and contract. Additionally, it provided for the ability to discuss and agree upon "new" flying. If no agreement could be reached, then the process went to arbitration.

This became an issue shortly after the "deal" closed. In February of 2006, the company announced the aquisition of 3 B757 aircraft, for new service to Europe, to begin in the spring. In good faith, the West pilots signed a letter of agreement, to lay claim to 7 Captain positions and 7 First officer positions, once the seniority list was in place. An IOU, so to speak.

Shortly thereafter, the company announced the aquisition of E190 aircraft, for growth flying. No agreement could be reached in that matter, so the decision was left to an arbitraitor. Not wanting to put a "footprint" on the main Seniority Arbitration, the E190 arbitrator again, issued an IOU for seats (current delivery aircraft) and a percentage of seats (future aircraft), once the final seniority list was in place.

No former America West pilot has had the opportunity to gain from this growth, due to the East pilot's actions to not honor the Nicolau decision or obtain a new contract. (The integration of the East and West pilots).

As for your second observation, that is a great question as well. After all, wasn't the big issue with the east pilots - seniority and length of service?? Doesn't appear consistent within the new union or the east pilot group, does it?

Now it appears the courts will decide this. This profession has hit a all-time low. Pilots are their own worst enemies. Meanwhile, the company is laughing all the way to the bank at the daily savings in wage and benefit outlay it would otherwise be responsible for.

Hope this helps, Cheers. :down:
 
After all, wasn't the big issue with the east pilots - seniority and length of service?? Doesn't appear consistent within the new union or the east pilot group, does it?

Ok, I'll bite = In exactly what way? Some/ANY specifics would be nice here...?????
 
Ok, I'll bite = In exactly what way? Some/ANY specifics would be nice here...?????

That answer is simple. It was originally observed by Sir Lurk-A-Lot. The current furloughs affect west pilots which were on the active seniority list prior to the "merger" announcement. It is my understanding that there are new-hire east pilots (post merger after all East recalls) which will not be affected by the current furlough numbers. Was there not supposed to be a "new hire" list created for those who were not on the East or West certified lists?

What am I missing here?? :blink:
 
What am I missing here?? :blink:

Pretty much just everything regarding the controlling constraints actually germane to the scenario at hand = Two distinctly seperate work contracts and working arenas at the present time. There currently exists NO/zip/zero provisions for either east nor west to take on each other's respective work. The 6 pilots coming from the west side were from the east contract, and had established recall rights to the east, and thusly displace an equal number of new hires in the east, as they "come home". No existent and combined seniority list is in play at this time.

Nice Connie pic, btw 😉
 
Preety much just everything regarding the controlling constraints actually germane to the scenario at hand = Two distinctly seperate contracts and working arenas at the present time.

Both of which include an addendum entitled "Transition Agreement." In that document you'll read that there is to be a third list containing the names of those pilots hired after the consummation of the merger. There is approximately 100 of such and they are to be furloughed before any pre-merger pilot. Period! So I can only guess as to why USAPA has ignored this... Either USAPA is playing games with the west pilots. Or they are completely ignorant in their duty to administer these contracts and more specifically the T.A. I'm gonna go with the first answer. That of course leads us to the conundrum USAPA finds itself in. The TA is either in full effect or it's not. USAPA can protect the rights of us west pilots in this round of furloughs or it can ignore them to their own detriment. However if you say on the one hand that the TA is in full effect then you get the Nic. So I suppose they'll have to choose. DFR or NIC.

...Of course these are my simple opinions...
 
... the USAPA effort to thwart the binding seniority arbitration....
Let me see if I can help you here.

The "binding seniority arbitration", as you say, is only binding in the event all actions of the transition agreement are complete.

Right now, there are two items missing. A ratified merger agreement for the west pilots as well as a ratified merger agreement for the east pilots.

There is no "thwarting" going on. Like any unfulfilled (for whatever reason) agreement, the "nic" sits, likely forever, awaiting two vital components. (I won't even discuss whether the east pilots would have ratified their merger agreement - though, for $500 per hour one might have blinked)

Just as you do not take possession of something until all items of a sales contract are fulfilled (like buying a house), the "nic" is not yours to bargain or bash with. It is not binding on anything. Just like you cannot take possession of a house you bought until all conditions and subparts are dealt with to the agreement of all parties, the house is not yours, so too, the "nic" is not yours.

The best example is that you have a winning lottery ticket but did not fulfill the "fine print" that you redeem it within a certain number of days, a condition. If you do not comply, the winnings are not yours. So, you "won" the lottery, but get no winnings.

Acting as if you "won" the "nic" and some entity "took it away from you" is faulty logic and likely will not hold up in any rational court, their first question being, where are the ratified merger agreements.
 
Ussnark,
No matter your self-explanation, the issue will be heard in Federal Court. Once again you'll have your agent present your case as we will have our agent argue for us. The impartial judge will decide who is right and who is wrong. But!!!! I feel compelled to caution you and your brethren out east... You cannot circumvent the ruling this time around.
 
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