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US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14

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My time at AWA contributes NOTHING to the future of the airline and neither does yours. You put in your time and are compensated for it, nothing more. We just work here.

OK then. Using that same logic: Refresh my memory as to exctly WHAT it is that you personally, supposedly "Brought" to this merger again? Seriously; exactly what is it in your mind that makes you feel yourself "worthy" of equivalent placement against anyone with twice your years worked within this now collective entity? For that matter, what makes you more worthy of retaining any position over those set for furlough? ..If it's not your time worked..what is it?..Charm and good looks? Perhaps your "Relative" personal worth...or "Relative" seniority? Why not just draw names out of the hat for furloughs/upgrades and all bidding purposes? Don't even DARE to suggest that such matters are actually done by DOH out there, that you fully embraced the DOH concept untill it didn't prove to your personal advantage, and that you're not now being furloughed specifically because of your 10.5 years.....What could possibly make you worthy of continued work while others are put on the streets? How could such an utter "injustice" to your "fellow pilots" out west even be remotely possible, according to all your fantasized notions of "fairness"? After all..you just put in your time and are compensated for it..just like everyone else...and you've the fullest contempt for years worked by anyone..so..umm..It's a bit puzzling at times here 😉

If all that above seems utterly ridiculous..Just imagine how your preposterous position actually looks to those out east...much less any other actual trade union people to be found anywhere 😉

No matter really. The "I want it all NOW!!..and It's ALL just about MEEE!!" comes through very loudly, and very clearly, regardless of whatever perverse twisting and flavoring is attempted, and irrespective of how many times such wholesale BS's attempted. I'd have to agree that further arguments on "fairness" seem worthless to pursue here.

Have fun with your lawyers for however many years, and good luck actually ever selling your perverse BS to the system. 🙄 One can never know the future outcome of any litigation, but I'm hardly going to lose any sleep over the proceedings to come.

tazz: "does not entitle you to a purple heart" = Real "Cute". After your fake "war hero", NicelandingCaptain departed in utter disgrace...I'd have thought you guys would lay off such 'Cute" references..I should have known better...what with that mighty Spartan "Army of Leonidas" Fantasyland ride out there running at max passenger capacity and all 😉 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKIoq65Jp24
 
Each merger turns on its' own merits. I would have been very pleased with retaining my relative position as a junior Captain, at the time (as was the AWA/AAA decision by Nicolau). While I had no expectations to eventually fly a 777 to Europe, I did on a 767. Rather, I was stapled below a pilot who had not even been interviewed at the time of the merger announcement and I was eventually furloughed.

Junior Captain? Hired at TWA? when? 1990? ALPO screwed you, didn't they? APA sucked ALPO in and you guys paid the price.

The difference between USAirways and TWA at the time of their respective merger announcements was huge. TWA was hiring pilots and other employees, and taking delivery of a brand new B717 every 11 days. Our DOT numbers were second to none on dispatch reliability and on time performance. It was just too bad that the deal with Carl sucked the profits from the efforts of the TWA employees.

ALPO had a chance to put a stop to Icahn long before you got hired there. Flash back to March 1986 when the TWA FAs went out on strike. ALPO told your pilots to "cross the picket line." Being the unionist that you are, Im sure if youd been there youd refused to cross the FA line, right?

As for ALPA, you and other "members" of that union at the time, stood idle by. You were thanking yourselves that it was not happening to you. After all, such a travesty could never happen to USAir, Northwest, Delta or United pilots.........substandard wages, lost retirements, etc.

So TWAs fate was all the other MECs fault? We stood idly by? That is classic victim whine. It was ALPO that screwd you, TWA-guy. ALPO represented you, not the other MECs.

As for the DFR.....yes, the legal system turns very slowly. However, we are still in the game with an end in sight.

"An end in sight?" Are you talking about the DFR LEO filed last week or the DFR you TWA guys filed against ALPO 7 years ago? TWA-guy, this LEO thing could drag out just as long. By the time you get a win, if you do, with our attrition which starts again in 2012, youd get the equivalent of the NIC anyway.

Pilots are their own worst enemies......

I cant argue with you there. snooper
 
Eastus, the only thing I brought to the merger was my "relative seniority". BINGO! You got it! Nicolau got it too.

Nice, still on that "I want it now, me me me" rant? Keep it up! Definition of insanity and all.
 
Nice, still on that "I want it now, me me me" rant? Keep it up! Definition of insanity and all.

Amazing..We actually and completely agree on something at last :lol: You may eventually grow out of it one day though..so there's hope 😉

tazz: "I never claimed to be entitled to anything." 😉..Sure..OK..that's enough laughs for now 😉
 
Lets let the courts decide this now and move on, no matter the outcome, knowing we all did what we could and start getting what we deserve from the company.

Didn't I hear those lines before the award? How'd it work then?

Which brings me back to my point at the beginning of this thread. No way either side is going to just play nice and accept something that is grossly unfair. Slightly unfair, maybe, but not grossly unfair as Nic was. The same goes for the East cramming a straight DOH list. It won't stand either. Only compromise will bring some labor peace. Otherwise this feud will die a slow miserable death as attrition eliminates the combatants from both sides...or the corporation expires. People on both sides are lying awake at night devising ways, should they lose, to press the attack no matter what any arbitrator, judge or CEO says. Oppression by either side will not stand. To quote Patrick Henry "Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace". Only compromise will endure, forced capitulation by EITHER side is NOT the answer.

A desire to resist oppression is implanted in the nature of man. ~ Tacitus
 
Only compromise will endure, forced capitulation by EITHER side is NOT the answer.
It may not be the answer but it WILL be the result. The time for compromise has long ago passed, you know, prior to entering arbitration.

The east cannot accept the result of arbitration so now this mess is in the hands of the courts. This decision will be irrefutable and, unfortunately, one side or the other will be forced to capitulate.
 
Amazing..We actually and completely agree on something at last :lol: You may eventually grow out of it one day though..so there's hope 😉

tazz: "I never claimed to be entitled to anything." 😉..Sure..OK..that's enough laughs for now 😉

Keep chasing that tail, you just might catch it!
 
It may not be the answer but it WILL be the result. The time for compromise has long ago passed, you know, prior to entering arbitration.

The east cannot accept the result of arbitration so now this mess is in the hands of the courts. This decision will be irrefutable and, unfortunately, one side or the other will be forced to capitulate.

Then sadly, as I said, we all will fail together. It may feel good to think you have won, but history has shown that tyranny has only a short season.


You can't hold a man down without staying down with him. ~ Booker T. Washington
 
Then sadly, as I said, we all will fail together. It may feel good to think you have won, but history has shown that tyranny has only a short season.


You can't hold a man down without staying down with him. ~ Booker T. Washington

Tamer,
With all due respect you must realize that in the eyes of the west we have tried in vain to find a compromise for the last 3 years. No we play our hand with the courts... It is all we have left.
 
Tger and other west folk,
Hate to repeat myself , but will do again as many months have passed.

Bottom line from East perspective:

West had nothing to lose by asking for "relative" as the worst outcome would have been DOH with all your protections and your carreers stability/advancement potential only stood a better chance of a positive outcome. Easy to play with MILLION $ stakes when ya have nothing to lose...only gain. Then play the self rightous victom of "only playing by rules". The ALPA system provided the west with a "no lose" process and now the greed of the west claims a loss of potential gain.
In my eyes and folk i know, the East wanted nothing of West but not so in your case. That fact is non-disputable.
FA :down:
 
Folks,

Just got an e-mail that is from the UAL MEC. They are going to ALPA national with a resolution that would change ALPA merger policy to DOH and start a National Senority list as soon as 2009 and would include any airline no matter if they are union or not. Interesting in light of the current situation here at US Airways.

Semper Fi
 
Folks,

I will try to add the resolution on this page hope it works.

Sent: 9/7/2008 3:08:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: National Seniority Protocol / Proposed Resolution UAL MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETINGSeptember 9-10, 2008


SUBJECT
National Seniority Protocol

SOURCE
UAL MEC

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
See proposed resolution.

PROPOSED RESOLUTION
WHEREAS the Air Line Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have the safest transportation system possible, and

WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and,

WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhance the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and

WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and

WHEREAS parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing), and

WHEREAS the fundamental principal of national seniority does not conflict with the current or future job prospects of pilots but instead extends a common system of advancement to be used at every ALPA carrier and bonds all ALPA pilots to the profession instead of to an individual airline; a national seniority list would assure a logical and rational adherence to a measurable, protected status of those pilots from a commonly defined starting point in their professional careers regardless of how many airlines may exist, regardless of the skill and economic acumen of the managements that run them, and regardless of the transient political influence of the day, and

WHEREAS the career security of any pilot who was able to transfer his seniority to another air carrier would liberate ALPA pilots and forever eliminate the ability of management to whipsaw or erode ALPA unity based on loss of job threats, economic fear or arbitrary merger awards, based on a perceived surviving carrier analogy, thus enabling ALPA to negotiate wages and work rules at all airlines based on the pilots’ collective evaluation of their true contribution and economic value to an air carrier,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot represented by ALPA both now and in the future, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the development of a national seniority protocol be assigned to a select National Seniority Committee (NSC) consisting of the President of ALPA; one pilot from each represented pilot group within group A, to be appointed by the Master Chairman of each MEC of the group; and one pilot representing each group designation: B1, B2, B3, B4 and C, each of whom shall be appointed by a consensus of the MEC Master Chairmen from each of the pilot groups represented within a classification; for a total of 11 members, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the National Seniority Committee will establish a single national seniority protocol that will be used to establish two separate lists reflecting the Canadian ALPA pilots and the United States ALPA pilots, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the protocol for an ALPA national seniority list will be developed by the NSC under a rigid timeline with a specific date for completion in 2009, and using a simple and transparent methodology that defines a starting point common to all professional air line pilots from which all seniority benefits and longevity will derive, and,

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievementâ€￾ with associated “exercise rightsâ€￾ in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon completion of the protocol, the NSC will present a single, unified explanation of the developed protocol to all ALPA members, and all other represented professional pilot groups, using all available communication tools before preferably submitting the NSC proposal for ALPA-wide membership ratification, Roll Call by the governing body, or the applicable rules as stipulated in the ALPA Constitution and By Laws, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon adoption as ALPA policy by the proper authorizing internal ALPA mechanisms, the national seniority protocol will be enforced as of that date and no ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement will be signed by the President of the Association without full inclusion of this policy as a part thereof.
 
With all due respect you must realize that in the eyes of the west we have tried in vain to find a compromise for the last 3 years.
The west has never tried to compromise. It was never in their best interests to compromise. The west policy has been to "go for the gold", knowing full well that the worst that could happen would be be no worse than what they had pre-merger.

Shameful.
 
Tger and other west folk,
Hate to repeat myself , but will do again as many months have passed.

Bottom line from East perspective:

West had nothing to lose by asking for "relative" as the worst outcome would have been DOH with all your protections and your carreers stability/advancement potential only stood a better chance of a positive outcome. Easy to play with MILLION $ stakes when ya have nothing to lose...only gain. Then play the self rightous victom of "only playing by rules". The ALPA system provided the west with a "no lose" process and now the greed of the west claims a loss of potential gain.
In my eyes and folk i know, the East wanted nothing of West but not so in your case. That fact is non-disputable.
FA :down:

What a load of crap! Please explain just what protections and stability/advancement the west would have had if DOH had been implemented. The west had everything to lose and status quo to gain. Playing by the rules doesn't make the west self rightous victims it just makes us professionals who played by the rules. Yours was truly one of the dumbest posts I've seen yet.
 
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