US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14

[Tiger 1050]

I find what I've read it to be both highly imaginative and entirely comical literature myself. To presume "bad faith" is a leap of interstellar proportions for starters. Should any contract proposal mandate the acceptance of a 50 cent per hour wage rate, there'd equally be no compelling reason for the majority of the electorate to accept that either, nor any onus attendant to their stated desires to never vote such a travesty into play. That's regardless of wheher or not said kingly wage was suggested in any arbitration or not. 50 cents per hour would also remain a mere proposal,and one that requires no special respect so as not to be considered any rejection by way of any supposed/imagined/fantasized "bad faith".

You make a solid point. However there is written and verbal (video) evidence that strongly suggests this "bad faith" is the very essence of your plan. So, yeah, I do not think the bad faith argument is, as you would put it, wholesale insanity. To plainly argue that a 50 cent raise is insufficient is one thing. To agree to binding arbitration and then after the fact do everything you can avoid your obligation and claiming now it is subject to a vote is unfortunate. If I understand your point, you must understand mine. This is not about what contract provisions you must accept. It is about the fact that you had ALREADY accepted the arbitration and any subsequent award! We'll let the court decide...

 

[Tiger 1050]

Off topic = I hope that your knee's healing up well and quickly sir.

Hey! Thanks! Yeah everyday seems it feels a little better. Although I still walk funny... And for some strange reason I can go up stairs pretty well but going down stairs is an exercise in humility... I'm not sure how it works out that way though as I can't figure the mechanics going up can be so different from going down...

 

[EastUS]

Let's see.....

I personally have 10.5 years since starting at AWA. The Nicolau list places me amongst east 1986 hires. That's 10.5/22-23. Not 8/23. On the date of the merger I was a junior captain on the 737, where I will remain until downgrade class in November. The east pilots around my seniority on the Nicolau list were also junior captains but will remain captains after I downgrade. The fact that they worked twelve more years than I did is irrelevant to our respective positions when merged.

Sigh...Words sometimes simply fail me..but I'll try here:

1) You have half the time worked as opposed to an east pilot that was your same "relative seniority".
2) You're whining about being downgraded from the left seat, and seem to imply that it should happen to the other guy, with admittedly, twice your years worked out east, instead?

"The fact that they worked twelve more years than I did is irrelevant..." My, My..aren't we so very, very "special" in our own little mind here? :blink: 🙄 Truly..words just fail me here.

 

[EastUS]

Hey! Thanks! Yeah everyday seems it feels a little better. Although I still walk funny... And for some strange reason I can go up stairs pretty well but going down stairs is an exercise in humility... I'm not sure how it works out that way though as I can't figure the mechanics going up can be so different from going down...

Good to hear and no worries sir = It's an effect from having the more instantaneous weight/G-loading on the downstairs side of the fence, as opposed to the muscles/etc being set and more gradually at work for the upstairs move. Gets better in a few weeks as we've discussed, and back to "new" in what seems like forever, but's only a matter of months.

OK..Back to the mutual "Oh Yeahs!!??" and our regularly scheduled programming

 

[tazz]

If the judge rules in your favor, you still haven't addressed the other part of the equation, which is membership - USAPA membership - ratification.

If the judge rules in the west's favor then DOH would have to be removed from the usapa constitution. At that point I believe most west pilots would join. That is the sticking point after all.

 

[EastUS]

You make a solid point. However there is written and verbal (video) evidence that strongly suggests this "bad faith" is the very essence of your plan. We'll let the court decide...

As well as there's no shortage of evidenciary abundance clearly demonstrating an interesting west group perspective on both the union and all it's actions. I'd again fairly note that no electorate can be faulted for a majority desire to not vote against their own interests, and any coloration of bad faith's seemingly an extremely tough sell therein. As you noted=we'll see what courts judge on this and the other issues. No sense "killing" each other in the meanwhile...but we'll all likely ocntinue to do so, if merely for mutual sport and the existing momentum...

On an entirely different issue; those of the 600 AWA folks who've just recently been voted into the union might well wish to read the section involving membership dutes regarding dues and read up on all issues regarding litigation as well.....

 

[EastUS]

If the judge rules in the west's favor then DOH would have to be removed from the usapa constitution.

I'm honestly confessing the fullest ignorance here sir. When's a court previously ordered any union to alter it's very constitution?..or to act in total contempt of said constitution? I've no great depth within any legal background and am interested here.

tazz: "The fact that they worked twelve more years than I did is irrelevant..." An interesting perspective indeed sir....not quite so boldly stated as "Leonidas" = "I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"..but..it's in the same neighborhood methinks 😉

 

[tazz]

Sigh...Words sometimes simply fail me..but I'll try here:

1) You have half the time worked as opposed to an east pilot that was your same "relative seniority".
2) You're whining about being downgraded from the left seat, and seem to imply that it should happen to the other guy, with twice your years workd out east, instead?

"The fact that they worked twelve more years than I did is irrelevant..." My, My..aren't we so very, very "special" in our own little mind here? :blink: 🙄 Truly..words just fail me here.

It's all about what we brought to the merger, not the time spent at the old company. The merger created a new entity. a 1986 eastie brought the same thing to the merger that I did - a junior captain seat. Wouldn't matter if he was a 1966 hire. A pilot on furlough at the date of merger brought nothing into the mix and shouldn't expect to be senior to a pilot holding an active position. I know you can't wrap your head around that concept because you are incapable of stowing your emotions during a debate.

By the way, I am not whining about the downgrade, simply stating the facts. Looking forward to four more days off in a month and choosing my trips and time off.

 

[ussnark]

To agree to binding arbitration and then after the fact do everything you can avoid your obligation and claiming now it is subject to a vote is unfortunate.

The "nic", by itself, as you will find out, creates no obligation. It needs two other contracts, both ratified by separate groups, of which, one, you will never get. That is the ALPA way.

The USAPA way is to say, defer your raging enthusiasm for several years, then, you get everything.

You can get everything now, fenced for fifteen years, or you can wait five years and get everything, with USAPA. It seems a no-brainer to me. Is the problem that west pilots cannot do spreadsheets?

 

[tazz]

I'm honestly confessing the fullest ignorance here sir. When's a court previously ordered any union to alter it's very constitution?..or to act in total contempt of said constitution? I've no great depth within any legal background and am interested here.

tazz: "The fact that they worked twelve more years than I did is irrelevant..." An interesting perspective indeed sir....not quite so boldly stated as "Leonidas" = "I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"..but..it's in the same neighborhood methinks 😉

The question was IF the judge ruled in the west's favor, what would happen. DOH would be moot wouldn't it? You comparing my statement of fact with that childish rant truly proves that you are emotionally driven. Keep chasing your tail, eastus, it's truly amusing.
Thanks, by the way for confessing your ignorance. It takes a big man to do that. You should do it more often.

 

[EastUS]

It's all about what we brought to the merger, not the time spent at the old company.

How astonishingly "convenient". FYI..NO ONE "brought" anything to this mess besides themselves, their experience and knowledge, and a willingess to continue working...PERIOD!!. In ALL realistic probablilty..what was 'brought" to the merger were two, otherwise doomed corporate entities, who's previous existences fully depended on the years worked by the respective employee groups. You have NOTHING to personally "sell" to the contrary, that's anything other than some wholly self-serving, utter fantasy....

If you believe your 10.5 years were of benefit to AWA's continued survival as well as the birthing of the current entity..How is it that years worked out east are entirely worthless in your estimation?

 

[ableoneable]

It's time to put all of this out of your mind.

It will unfold as it will, meanwhile I think that USAir is now looking at about a 40% chance of survival. Unless oil drops to $80/bbl or the economy turns completely around and a fare increase can be sustained we will probably be bumping up against our financial covenants in......I will wager late June or early July 2009. I think the next trip into bankruptcy will be a one way voyage.

To put it the way I did at a recent job interview, when I was asked why I was looking, I said that I had been up on the promenade deck and they were stripping the lifeboat covers off.

Start contingency planning now. It's going to be current pay until the last day.

If you have been putting off minor surgery or dental work, I would get it done soon.

 

[ussnark]

I will wager late June or early July 2009. I think the next trip into bankruptcy will be a one way voyage.

Why are you still here?

 

[ableoneable]

Why are you still here?

Because I still make more in the left seat here than I will if I accept a full time position at brand X.

I have a foot in the door, which is good for the time being.

 

[BoeingBoy]

How is it that years worked out east are entirely worthless in your estimation?

For the same reason it's called a combined seniority list and not a combined longevity list...

Jim