US Pilot Labor Thread

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[nostradamus]

aquagreen73s
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post Today, 11:57 AM
Post #173


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The other is that of a fifty something year old (probably copilot), overweight, bald, no money, and FIRED for being an idiot. Yeah...no difference here! laugh.gif

Men with money never saved the world aquagreed.


Click here for a Man in his fifties, no money, overweight, bald, no money and fired.

 

[jetjok1]

Aquagreen,

Well, you got half of the equation right. Probably had it tough in Math. Sorry for that.The sick child is real and you got that. the other analogy is stupid and shooting in the dark at best. I know, that pilot was in my class. Your description of him was a pipe dream. Something the Westies seem to associate with a lot. I have a suggestion. Stay off the boards unless you do your homework and know what you're talking about. Because you don't!!!

 

[nostradamus]

aquagreen73s
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post May 3 2007, 08:41 PM
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Overall, this is clearly a "victory" for the West, but not one where the West should be gloating. I anticipate there will be repucussions from the East. I think Doug is about to find out why mergers have a heavy price - a price that a number cruncher will never recognize until reality hits him square in the head.

What the heck...things were not rosy at AWA anyway. A BK was probably inevitable and all the merger did is delay the instability. From what I can tell from this list, Doug had better be prepared for some venting on the East side.


Aquagreen, I agree with your post above after the flawed nic award last year, very intelligent summarization. You intelligence shined before post nic fervor.

 

[EastUS]

Ableoneable:

Clearly you are not a constitutional scholar. You were, however, a commissioned officer of the United States Armed Forces. I know this because you bring it up constantly. If memory serves you were required to swear an oath to protect and defend the very constitution with which you freely admit you are not an expert."

I may well have missed the part wherein it was read: "To defend as yet unborn babies in Arid-zona from the Tyranny of the Majority of the evil east pilots". Your noting the federalist papers did nothing to address my observations. I found no merit in the assumption that the establishment of the various branches of government was shaped based upon some nonsensically supposed, major obsession with avoiding "The Tyranny of the Majority", for which you've offerred not the slightest rebuttal...merely another westie "Nyaah Nyaah"...Typical of the evolved thoughts of a true scholar. 🙄

"How someone could gain an officers commission with so little an understanding of the Constitution of the United States is beyond me. I hope that blue suit command has corrected this alarming deficiency in their officer corps." Most definately sir!!, Something should be done immediately!! I say we immediately and henceforth model all of our officers on the fine example of your very own westie "war hero", and (formerly) loudest true Champion of "INTEGRITY MATTERS!!", NiceLandingCaptain himself...If he isn't currently too busy saving hundreds of troops on the ground in his gray jet, in a combat tour only of his own wholesale fantasy , to offer himself up as the proper cookie cutter After that? = I say that we model the Oath entirely upon your own notions 😉

"East pilots who were two thousand deep in furlough territory at the time of the merger are going to be keeping their jobs. Looks like theft to me. Don't let the facts cloud your judgment." "Let's look at the score so far. West pilots who were captains at the time of the merger are going to the right seat. West pilots who were employed as F.O.s at the time of the merger are headed for the street." A true pity that you west folks wanted nothing to do with respecting even length of service..although even that would have placed many of them above a great many of yours in any case. None of that nonsense would have suited the "I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it" sorts though...and you thusly, find yourselves where you now are.

"BTW, Mr. Experience how much flight time did you say you had when you were first hired by your USAir predecessor airline?Oh that's right you don't answer questions when the answer is contrary to the B.S. you have espoused about how you were hired when airlines had real standards." Initial airline hiring for me came at approx 2,600 hours of combined civil and military time. If one counts civil sport flying time = approx 3,500TT.

"Let's look at the score so far. West pilots who were captains at the time of the merger are going to the right seat." No problems that I can see for you therein By the established, and often posted high standards of west "INTEGRITY" and inestimable moral high ground = You can merely dismiss them entirely as but "The angry first officer's club". I guess that, by west standards and "logic"..they all simply made a bad decision to work for such a crippled company, and it's certainly not anyone's duty out there to be the least bit concerned for the fates of those furloughed (who don't even then exist as actual people anyway, at least within the west's "Righteous Position" to date), nor of those facing seat downgrades. Actual "Reality" isn't really much fun sometimes...is it? Ah well..don't worry about it..nothing of the sort could ever happen to the chosen finest of AWA....especially with all those "Career Expectations".

I'd love to believe that even a tiny few of the folks out west would, by now, at least begin to "get it" as to the true nature of this insane industry. I won't be so insane as to suggest that some, even slight and hesitant appreciation for the value of time worked and actual, rather than "snapshot" seniority, might ever rise up high the collective perceptions out there though....

Kabutopilot: "How bout the special fund for OUR 300 about to be furloughees ??? Or is USAPA the same as their predecessor ???" I'd think that a reasonable idea myself sir.

Addendum: I don't care whether west-east-whatever...It wouldn't hurt any/all of us to do whatever we can for those facing furloughs. We're all in this mess together, and even teh "I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it" sort of seemingly hopeless fools may eventually understand that.

 

[Megasnoop]

I'd love to believe that even a tiny few of the folks out west would, by now, at least begin to "get it" as to the true nature of this insane industry. I won't be so insane as to suggest that some, even slight and hesitant appreciation for the value of time worked and actual, rahter than "snapshot" seniority might ever rise up high the collective perceptions out there though....

Kabutopilot: "How bout the special fund for OUR 300 about to be furloughees ??? Or is USAPA the same as their predecessor ???" I'd think that a reasonable idea myself sir.

EastUS, Oldie and Nostra,

it's a waste band-width trying to correct all the West disinformation and their total ME-ME-ME lack of understanding of how the NMB, RLA and contracts work. They'll never "get it."

No better example of disinformation than Cockroach's pasting an 8-month old USAPA request for money, which was immediately picked up by the usual west suspects. Do they really think their garbage is having any effect on this board?

Then we've got the latest James Madison spin. Drawing a comparison between one of the minority viewpoints in the Federalist Papers and the USAPA election is a wild stretch. Madison was a patrician who was afraid of the uneducated masses. He didn't even want people who didn't own land to be allowed to vote. The Westies claim they're all educated and rich. Their posts leave their education level to debate.

And for you, cleardirect, USAPA has made it quite clear: they will go for DOH or as close as the company allows them to get to DOH. After all, it is negotiable, at least according to your AWAPPA attorney.

I hope USAPA doesn't divulge its position and it's negotiating strategy. But what do you care? You won't even get to vote.

Contracts negotiated in haste are repented in leisure.

And lastly, cleardirect, USAPA's got at least another 20 months to negotiate before ALPA has a chance to remove them. I can wait. And after what we've been through the past six years, I think most of us back east can wait for the right time, the right deal.

One more thing, I'm sure we'll once again fund a COBRA-Suppliment fund for medical benefits for our unemployed. We did it before, for years not for the 12 months that West pilots were furloughed post 9-11. But with as many RJ airlines and foregin carriers hiring EXPERIENCED pilots, anyone who is out of work more than a couple of months isn't really trying. Snoop

 

[EastUS]

EastUS, Oldie and Nostra,

it's a waste band-width trying to correct all the West disinformation and their total ME-ME-ME lack of understanding of how the NMB, RLA and contracts work.
They'll never "get it."

Roger All Snoop, and fully agreed, save for a minor portion = "Then we've got the latest James Madison spin. Drawing a comparison between one of the minority viewpoints in the Federalist Papers ... I'd have to argue that, despite Mr Hamilton's virtual domination, (poor bastige really shoulda' learned to shoot both accurately and quickly),Mr Jay's observations/etc ..that Mr. Madison's input was substantive indeed, and not properly noted as a merely minority input within the papers. That his views were at all universally held?= I think NOT!. I'd have to note that I've always been a fan of Thomas Jefferson's rather more colorfull thinking earlier..even though he was, himself, certainly a Patrician of the day. I love reading, two centuries after the fact, the thoughts of such men entangled in ideological battle, for the ever-elusive, collective "Truth" 😉 No matter = It'd be a delicious discussion..but the only thing to be gleaned from the local fields on this would be yet more "and we hate you guys" input from our west 'friends" and scholars...More's the pity.

I'm still vainly searching for some overwhelming evidence sustaining some supposedly universal concerns with any "Tyranny of the Majority"...but, from Mr. Hamilton, we have:

"As the people are the only legitimate fountain of power, and it is from them that the constitutional charter, under which the several branches of government hold their power, is derived, it seems strictly consonant to the republican theory, to recur to the same original authority, not only whenever it may be necessary to enlarge, diminish, or new-model the powers of the government, but also whenever any one of the departments may commit encroachments on the chartered authorities of the others. The several departments being perfectly co-ordinate by the terms of their common commission, none of them, it is evident, can pretend to an exclusive or superior right of settling the boundaries between their respective powers; and how are the encroachments of the stronger to be prevented, or the wrongs of the weaker to be redressed, without an appeal to the people themselves, who, as the grantors of the commissions, can alone declare its true meaning, and enforce its observance?" Hmm...kinda' sounds supiciously like a request/demand for the people, aka "The Tyranny of the Majority" to decide things in the final analysis. But heck!..WTF do I know? Perhaps some great minds out west can come forth to show me the clear errors within my ignorant and disjointed thinking....

Megasnoop: "And lastly, cleardirect, USAPA's got at least another 20 months to negotiate before ALPA has a chance to remove them. I can wait. And after what we've been through the past six years, I think most of us back east can wait for the right time, the right deal." Completely agreed there sir, and worth emphasis.

A closing papers "sound bite", imho, fully worthy of thought, from Mr. Hamilton = "The zeal for attempts to amend, prior to the establishment of the Constitution, must abate in every man who is ready to accede to the truth of the following observations of a writer equally solid and ingenious: "To balance a large state or society Usays hee, whether monarchical or republican, on general laws, is a work of so great difficulty, that no human genius, however comprehensive, is able, by the mere dint of reason and reflection, to effect it. The judgments of many must unite in the work; experience must guide their labor; time must bring it to perfection, and the feeling of inconveniences must correct the mistakes which they INEVITABLY fall into in their first trials and experiments."3 These judicious reflections contain a lesson of moderation to all the sincere lovers of the Union, and ought to put them upon their guard against hazarding anarchy, civil war, a perpetual alienation of the States from each other, ....." How does anyone explain such notions to the "Booyooshaka!" crowd?..given that huge divisions existed from the very inception of this "Ho Ho Ho!, St Nic is coming to town!" fracas 'tween west and east?

 

[ableoneable]

I may well have missed the part wherein it was read: "To defend as yet unborn babies in Arid-zona from the Tyranny of the Majority of the evil east pilots". Your noting the federalist papers did nothing to address my observations. I found no merit in the assumption that the establishment of the various branches of government was shaped based upon some nonsensically supposed, major obsession with avoiding "The Tyranny of the Majority", for which you've offerred not the slightest rebuttal...merely another westie "Nyaah Nyaah"...Typical of the evolved thoughts of a true scholar. 🙄

I am not going to attempt to correct your woefully inadequate understanding of our founding fathers' thoughts or actions other than to say that perhaps you should look into why the Federalist Papers were written and who commissioned them. Hint: You are going to have to go deeper than a google search.

Most definately sir!!, Something should be done immediately!! I say we immediately and henceforth model all of our officers on the fine example of your very own westie "war hero", and (formerly) loudest true Champion of "INTEGRITY MATTERS!!", NiceLandingCaptain himself...If he isn't currently too busy saving hundreds of troops on the ground in his gray jet, in a combat tour only of his own wholesale fantasy , to offer himself up as the proper cookie cutter After that? = I say that we model the Oath entirely upon your own notions 😉

I will let this piece of inanity stand as its own proof of your dementia.

A true pity that you west folks wanted nothing to do with respecting even length of service..although even that would have placed many of them above a great many of yours in any case. None of that nonsense would have suited the "I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it" sorts though...and you thusly, find yourselves where you now are.

As has been pointed out many times there never were any negotiations. The east representatives idea of negotiating was to present their list and say "take it or leave it."

Keep in mind that the west side had no idea how Nicolau would rule and were more than willing to negotiate as they believed that DOH was a possible, though not probable, arbitration outcome. All the way to Wye the east negotiating stance remained the same. It was not the west side that failed to negotiate in good faith.

" Initial airline hiring for me came at approx 2,600 hours of combined civil and military time. If one counts civil sport flying time = approx 3,500TT.

An actual answer. A sincere if surprised thank you.

In response to your quote below;

QUOTE (EastUS @ Jul 26 2008, 01:25 AM)
"Once upon a Time"....It took years of devoted effort, excellent scores in most everything, generally, service to one's country as well, at least a Bachelor's Degree...and a substantial amount of initial experience, as well as good judgement, to ever become "An Airline Pilot"...Clearly, as is made plain out west, and very sadly...those times are now but a footnote in history....

I must point out that you are delusional in your thinking. If memory serves the lowest time pilot in my new hire class had 3900hrs. Quite a few had significant jet PIC time and overwater experience. At least a third had been DO's and CP's for 121, 129 and 135 carriers. A few had Branniff (I & II), PanAM, Eastern, Polar, Atlas and TWA uniforms in their closets. Some had more than one of those.

This is not to say you were inexperienced when first hired but you were certainly not hired in an a golden era of exceptional qualifications which is, "very sadly......now but a footnote in history."

I dare suggest that your ego is ever so slightly over-inflated and that you might want to bleed off some of that excess pressure.

No problems that I can see for you therein By the established, and often posted high standards of west "INTEGRITY" and inestimable moral high ground = You can merely dismiss them entirely as but "The angry first officer's club". I guess that, by west standards and "logic"..they all simply made a bad decision to work for such a crippled company, and it's certainly not anyone's duty out there to be the least bit concerned for the fates of those furloughed (who don't even then exist as actual people anyway, at least within the west's "Righteous Position" to date), nor of those facing seat downgrades. Actual "Reality" isn't really much fun sometimes...is it? Ah well..don't worry about it..nothing of the sort could ever happen to the chosen finest of AWA....especially with all those "Career Expectations".

I'd love to believe that even a tiny few of the folks out west would, by now, at least begin to "get it" as to the true nature of this insane industry. I won't be so insane as to suggest that some, even slight and hesitant appreciation for the value of time worked and actual, rather than "snapshot" seniority, might ever rise up high the collective perceptions out there though....

Take a breath and break it down into a couple of rational sentences.

Addendum: I don't care whether west-east-whatever...It wouldn't hurt any/all of us to do whatever we can for those facing furloughs. We're all in this mess together, and even teh "I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it" sort of seemingly hopeless fools may eventually understand that.

Here we find some common ground. Unlike Oldie who seems to take perverse pleasure in the misfortune of others I grant that you are most certainly not of the same mind.

With respect to;

I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it" sort of seemingly hopeless fools may eventually understand that.

It is the east pilots who seem to be content with taking west jobs as their due. East furloughees and West pilots are trading places. This is the reality, east pilots stealing west jobs.

Finally, could you please learn to use the quote command so that one might separate your schizophrenic thoughts from those of other posters.

 

[EastUS]

Yes, yes..we all know of your vast oceans of entirely self-assigned "INTEGRITY"..and it's been amply demonstrated even within these boards. A pity that none such have apparently existed at any level in the post-nic phase of life.

"I am not going to attempt to correct your woefully inadequate understanding of our founding fathers' thoughts or actions other than to say that perhaps you should look into why the Federalist Papers were written and who commissioned them." Oh!, but good sir!..Do please be so very kind then, as to show that you've any understanding at all, much less justification for pompous BS, postured and self assigned "knowledge" then? I'm very much up for actual debate on these issues..and "Nyaah Nyaahs" don't much impress anyone. = "An actual answer. A sincere if surprised thank you." I'll not hold my breath on one from your side.

"Take a breath and break it down into a couple of rational sentences." Hmmm..an interesting observation form one who assigns him/herself great and intimate knowledge of the thoughts and ideals of the founding fathers. Have you EVER actually even read anything that any of them wrote?..especially in the writing style of the day?...I'd now guess NOT. Exactly how would even that Preamble be writtin in westie-speak, hopefully acceptable to you?...Clearly Not "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." I'd have to guess that such would be far too lenghty indeed, and would be best summariazed by "Dudes!..let's just keep it Real!" or something of the sort.

"This is not to say you were inexperienced when first hired but you were certainly not hired in an a golden era of exceptional qualifications which is, "very sadly......now but a footnote in history." Kind of you. I can only note that, within any that I've known of, that being hired at AWA was a an act of utter desperation, having failed previous interviews, and was considered an interim positon while waiting for a "real job". Our viewpoints are obviously polarized from our respective experiences and acquaintances


"I will let this piece of inanity stand as its own proof of your dementia" Again..very kind of you. Cite wherein any falsehood lies, or otherwise shut up.

"I must point out that you are delusional in your thinking." Nuts!..I was afraid of that all along...and now..the secret's out! 😉

"I dare suggest that your ego is ever so slightly over-inflated and that you might want to bleed off some of that excess pressure." Sigh..OK = debate over...I'm routed, and my beliefs and opinions are fully invalidated...Dang itall! 😉

 

[ableoneable]

quote name='ableoneable' date='Aug 18 2008, 05:06 PM' post='634608'

Keep in mind that the west side had no idea how Nicolau would rule and were more than willing to negotiate as they believed that DOH was a possible, though not probable, arbitration outcome. All the way to Wye the east negotiating stance remained the same. It was not the west side that failed to negotiate in good faith.


Yes, yes..we all know of your vast oceans of entirely self-assigned "INTEGRITY"..and it's been amply demonstrated even within these boards. A pity that none such have apparently existed at any level in the post-nic phase of life.

"I am not going to attempt to correct your woefully inadequate understanding of our founding fathers' thoughts or actions other than to say that perhaps you should look into why the Federalist Papers were written and who commissioned them." Oh!, but good sir!..Do please be so very kind then, as to show that you've any understanding at all, much less justification for pompous BS, postured and self assigned "knowledge" then? I'm very much up for actual debate on these issues..and "Nyaah Nyaahs" don't much impress anyone. = "An actual answer. A sincere if surprised thank you." I'll not hold my breath on one from your side.

"Take a breath and break it down into a couple of rational sentences." Hmmm..an interesting observation form one who assigns him/herself great knowledge of the thoughts and ideals of the founding fathers. Have you EVER actually even read anything that any of them wrote?..especially in the writing style of the day?...I'd now guess NOT.

"This is not to say you were inexperienced when first hired but you were certainly not hired in an a golden era of exceptional qualifications which is, "very sadly......now but a footnote in history." Kind of you. I can only note that, within any that I've known of, that being hired at AWA was a an act of utter desperation, having failed previous interviews, and was considered an interim positon while waiting for a "real job". Our viewpoints are obviously polarized from our respective experiences and acquaintances


"I will let this piece of inanity stand as its own proof of your dementia" Again..very kind of you. Cite wherein any falsehood lies, or otherwise shut up.

"I must point out that you are delusional in your thinking." Nuts!..I was afraid of that all along...and now..the secret's out! 😉

"I dare suggest that your ego is ever so slightly over-inflated and that you might want to bleed off some of that excess pressure." Sigh..OK = debate over...I'm routed, and my beliefs and opinions are fully invalidated...Dang itall! 😉

To open a quote place the word "quote" in brackets.

To close a quote place the a slash in front of the bracketed word; i.e. " /quote"


When you have proven that you can master this difficult concept maybe we can move on to discussing more complex issues like constitutional law and revolutionary era politics.

You must learn to walk before you can run grasshopper.

Thus far I have only seen you stumble around while sighing a lot.

 

[EastUS]

To open a quote place the word "quote" in brackets.

To close a quote place the a slash in front of the bracketed word; i.e. " /quote"


When you have proven that you can master this difficult concept maybe we can move on to discussing more complex issues like constitutional law and revolutionary era politics.

You must learn to walk before you can run grasshopper.

Thus far I have only seen you stumble around while sighing a lot.

"When you have proven that you can master this difficult concept maybe we can move on to discussing more complex issues like constitutional law and revolutionary era politics." In other words = You have not the slightest clue? 😉

I'm now utterly crushed and must properly slink away, both abashed and defeated......

"A never ending source of smusement" 🙄

Have a good one 😉

 

[ableoneable]

I'm now utterly crushed and must properly slink away, both abashed and defeated......

"A never ending source of smusement" 🙄

Have a good one 😉

Glad you have finally seen the light.

 

[ableoneable]

"When you have proven that you can master this difficult concept maybe we can move on to discussing more complex issues like constitutional law and revolutionary era politics." In other words = You have not the slightest clue? 😉

I'm now utterly crushed and must properly slink away, both abashed and defeated......

"A never ending source of smusement" 🙄

Have a good one 😉

I see you snuck in an edit.

With respect to your question:

Hmmm..an interesting observation form one who assigns him/herself great and intimate knowledge of the thoughts and ideals of the founding fathers. Have you EVER actually even read anything that any of them wrote?..especially in the writing style of the day?...I'd now guess NOT.

You guess wrong.

How many DBQs have you answered?

 

[nostradamus]

OK
Based on what I've read here is my proposed settlement. I

You are best suited to continue selling your mimeograph machines.

 

[ableoneable]

You are best suited to continue selling your mimeograph machines.

Piney, you just don't understand how negotiation works. You show up with an opening position and never, ever move off of it, no matter what happens.

I don't understand why you have not failed completely in business.