US Pilot Labor Thread

[tazz]

Well sounds like I should refrain from continued whining to my wife and kids... I can't say they came up with a "quart" of coleslaw... Man that sounds pretty bad. I did get pictures though and it makes me wonder why it never hurt worse than it did. Especially on longer runs. So you have a testimony that the process works? I recently started running about 7 mos. ago and I'd like to make it a regular habit for the rest of my life. My new goal is to get healed and run a half marathon in early spring...

Tiger, I was a lifetime 5 to 10 mile/day guy until I hit 45, then the knees started hurting. Doctor said cut back on the running or painful surgery was in my future. Took up biking, no knee probems, love it. No surgery required.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Tiger, I was a lifetime 5 to 10 mile/day guy until I hit 45, then the knees started hurting. Doctor said cut back on the running or painful surgery was in my future. Took up biking, no knee probems, love it. No surgery required.

Point taken sir! However I'm not sure I can emotionally detach myself from running at this point... At least one marathon in my life is a major goal. Gotta do at least one...

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (ussnark @ Aug 22 2008, 09:15 PM)
The west has pilots with four years service being furloughed? Really? New hires out east, with seven years seniority being furloughed before four year west pilots? Travesty, indeed. You need to get your numbers straight.

How many years did they actually serve during their seven years of seniority?

Good point, Tazz. The answer is probably about 14-20 months +/-. But these furloughs are done legal by the company using 2 current contracts, 2 lists. Too bad your MEC didn't agre to Wye River LOS w/ fences. Then furloughs would be LOS with a joint contract, fewer west furloughs/downgrades. I wish you guys would back off all this talk that we've been illegally screwing with the single contract for the past 3 years. It's not true and it causes mudslinging. LOS could have been a reasonable compromise. But that's gone now. Your against it and so is USAPA. We'll probably fight it out in court someday, but illegally screwing with the list for 3 years is stupid fighting words. One thing we won't get from a jury is a compromise.

Just a fact check, your furloughs are a group with less than 1 year LOS, then a group with 5 to 6 years LOS. No one in between. Our furloughs also a group with less than 1 year, the rest hired 8-9 years ago. snoop

 

[ussnark]

How many years did they actually serve during their seven years of seniority?

So, now it is all about LOS?
Better question. How many years (months) did the west furloughs "serve"?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Just a fact check, your furloughs are a group with less than 1 year LOS, then a group with 5 to 6 years LOS.

Just so you know I have 4yrs and 2mos. LOS as of today and I'll be furloughed. I'm not sure I understand your 1 year then 5-6 yr comment...

No one in between. Our furloughs also a group with less than 1 year, the rest hired 8-9 years ago. snoop

I think you are confusing seniority with LOS. Those on your side hired 8-9 years ago... Do they have the same longevity as me?

I'll admit im probably missing something here though. Please explain...

 

[EastUS]

Point taken sir! However I'm not sure I can emotionally detach myself from running at this point... At least one marathon in my life is a major goal. Gotta do at least one...

Gotta' go 100% with tazz on this one Tiger = Running puts impact stress on the kness..period. Ummm...not saying not to do the marathon once for spiritual purposes...but/etc...there are far less damaging ways to get the aerobics in for the long term. Therein..it might be of value to take some "geezer" input. In the meanwhile, and especially during the initial healing phases = whine away freely...How many times can a man do that in any marriage and actually get away with it? Seize the moment 😉

We can always go back to pilot group fighting whenever it's appropriate, but this is a nice little break at least. Let's hear it for at least some momentary common ground as human beings

PS: Ok..Pom Poms quickly put away. Noting the furlough discussions above ; I'm on record as favoring LOS....just one opinion though. of course..LOS brings us dangerously close to having to admit that the amount of work a person's done should count for something, seniority-wise 😉

 

[Tiger 1050]

Gotta' go 100% with tazz on this one Tiger = Running puts impact stress on the kness..period. Ummm...not saying not to do the marathon once for spiritual purposes...but/etc...there are far less damaging ways to get the aerobics in for the long term. Therein..it might be of value to take some "geezer" input. In the meanwhile, and especially during the initial healing phases = whine away freely...How many times can a man do that in any marriage and actually get away with it? Seize the moment 😉

We can always go back to pilot group fighting whenever it's appropriate, but this is a nice little break at least. Let's hear it for at least some momentary common ground as human beings

PS: Noting the furlough discussions above ; I'm on record as favoring LOS....just one opinion though.

Well I figure being 36 years young I can squeeze one in. But I can agree that maybe super long term I should find another avenue to "purchase endorphins." And if you still punish yourself regularly in a S-2 then you can't be too much of a geezer.

As far as the LOS... I'm still not sure I am following snoops comments. I was hoping he would elaborate some.

 

[EastUS]

Well I figure being 36 years young I can squeeze one in. But I can agree that maybe super long term I should find another avenue to "purchase endorphins." And if you still punish yourself regularly in a S-2 then you can't be too much of a geezer.

As far as the LOS... I'm still not sure I am following snoops comments. I was hoping he would elaborate some.

Last thought on the healing cycle = Suggest an expectation of feeling really good at 6-7 months, "ok" at 3-4, not necessarilly any sooner. I was back up at Heavenly and Squaw 10 months after surgery without the least ill effects.

My take on LOS? = I can't see my way to ever say to any person that he/she should step aside for any that have directly contributed less to the operation themselves. Again..my view's merely my own, and not universally held to be sure.

 

[Tiger 1050]

LOS brings us dangerously close to having to admit that the amount of work a person's done should count for something, seniority-wise 😉

On this we agree! For me personally, the sticking point is the term DOH. Which of course would devastating to my position in this battle... Not to mention many of my peers here at AWA. Maybe USAPA can change their mantra a bit to be more LOS friendly? Either way I appreciate the genuine and kind commentary taking place here.

 

[Megasnoop]

Just so you know I have 4yrs and 2mos. LOS as of today and I'll be furloughed. I'm not sure I understand your 1 year then 5-6 yr comment...

Ok, I just rechecked DOH list. I was off a year. You hired pilots as late as March 2005. So change my 5-6 to 3 1/2-4 1/2. No change in the point of my post.

I think you are confusing seniority with LOS. Those on your side hired 8-9 years ago... Do they have the same longevity as me?

I'll admit im probably missing something here though. Please explain...

No, I understand the difference. Those we hired 8-9 years ago have less than half your longevity, although we could debate MDA pilot status for years. But as long as we're operating under 2 differnt lists and 2 differnt contracts, the company way of furloughing was by the book. You guys turned down LOS with fences. Now it's making your furloughs and downgrades worse. If we knock off all the misinformation and attacks, we can talk about this civily. That's my point.

For me personally, the sticking point is the term DOH. Which of course would devastating to my position in this battle... Not to mention many of my peers here at AWA. Maybe USAPA can change their mantra a bit to be more LOS friendly? Either way I appreciate the genuine and kind commentary taking place here.

USAPA doesn't really have much wiggle room on this. They ran on DOH. As long as you guys refuse to join and make your feelings known through the union process, USAPA's got deniability. You ignore USAPA, they'll ignore you, except in grievances/discipline where they have to represent you. With no Reps, you get no representation. I don't know when you get furloughed, but if you've got some time to go, maybe you ought to join and be a Rep. Then you can put in your opinion. You may not get any where, but what to lose?
Tiger, I'm not too wound up on any of this. I know that even with straight DOH, I'm stuck in the right seat if I want to stay on the wide bodies. Maybe that's why I don't go postal on this chat board.snoop

 

[Tiger 1050]

No, I understand the difference. Those we hired 8-9 years ago have less than half your longevity, although we could debate MDA pilot status for years. But as long as we're operating under 2 differnt lists and 2 differnt contracts, the company way of furloughing was by the book. You guys turned down LOS with fences. Now it's making your furloughs and downgrades worse. If we knock off all the misinformation and attacks, we can talk about this civily. That's my point.

I agree with you... Our AWALPA leadership has ultimately hosed us in the long run. But in their defense I believe that they were doing what they thought was best at the time... Hindsight has the benefit of being 20/20.

I do believe that the company has failed to address this 3rd seniority list in the Transition Agreement. Basically anyone who was hired after the merger must be furloughed before anyone else. Probably won't help my position much but it might help some other guys/gals.

USAPA doesn't really have much wiggle room on this. They ran on DOH. As long as you guys refuse to join and make your feelings known through the union process, USAPA's got deniability. You ignore USAPA, they'll ignore you, except in grievances/discipline where they have to represent you. With no Reps, you get no representation. I don't know when you get furloughed, but if you've got some time to go, maybe you ought to join and be a Rep. Then you can put in your opinion. You may not get any where, but what to lose?
Tiger, I'm not too wound up on any of this. I know that even with straight DOH, I'm stuck in the right seat if I want to stay on the wide bodies. Maybe that's why I don't go postal on this chat board.snoop

I do not think USAPA would lose face if they changed their stance a bit. But you are right. If I choose not to participate then I deserve no voice. What I am having trouble with is the idea that I'd be sending money to an entity that will not keep my interests and that of my family at heart. I know they will do as the majority directs but still... I guess someone is gonna have to make a move eventually. As for me I am hoping to find a gig somewhere else.

 

[700UW]

IAM M&R Negotiating Committee during the second chapter 11 case.

 

[tazz]

I can agree that the concept of Length of service should have been considered. Prior to going to arbitration it was. The east, however, was hard and fast on pure DOH and arbitration was the result. After George Nicolau rendered his opinion on fairness alpa attempted to persuade the west to negotiate. The west determined that the time for negotiation was over. Nicolau had even given the east a second chance to reconsider negotiating prior to rendering his decision but the stance on DOH was hard and fast. The west already knew there would be no movement from DOH.

Even if it is true that Wye River would have resulted in some sort of movement (re: LOS) from the east the west became hard and fast on the results of the lengthy and expensive results of binding arbitration. Can you blame them at this point? Believing that binding arbitration would not be overturned, why consider negotiating after the fact with a group that wouldn't budge in the past? Our MEC would have been lynched.

Despite all the rhetoric, and I am not instigating an argument, I do believe that the Nicolau decision will stand. Parker won't overturn it and the courts will uphold it. My opinion, nothing more. At that time it would be pointless for usapa to keep DOH in its constitution. When that finally happens it will happen. Unfortunately, the two sides will never come together (I have friends at NWA/Republic). This place will be an unhappy, bitter workplace for the rest of my 14 years left here and beyond unless we merge with a larger entity which may result in diluting the bitterness of this "merger".

Through all of this I admire the tenacity of each MEC in doing what they believed was best for their people. ALPA screwed up by, well, just being the political wishy washy organization that it is. Each side is still digging in their heels and that is to be expected until the fat lady sings..... or slams down her gavel.

 

[Pi brat]

The east, however, was hard and fast on pure DOH and arbitration was the result.
.

US ALPA's position was LOS. DOH came with USAPA.

 

[Pi brat]

Well sounds like I should refrain from continued whining to my wife and kids... I can't say they came up with a "quart" of coleslaw... Man that sounds pretty bad. I did get pictures though and it makes me wonder why it never hurt worse than it did. Especially on longer runs. So you have a testimony that the process works? I recently started running about 7 mos. ago and I'd like to make it a regular habit for the rest of my life. My new goal is to get healed and run a half marathon in early spring...

Good luck with the knee and the running. I have to agree with you, nothing works for me like running does. It has helped keep me semi-sane through this place and my personal life.

Take care, I have to go ice my knee!