US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/14-10/22

[TheBadCat1313]

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2009/bts.../bts034_09.html

Table 11: Top 10 U.S. Airports, ranked by January-April 2009 Domestic Scheduled Enplanements

Passenger numbers in millions (000,000)


Jan-Apr 2009 Enplaned Passengers Pct. Change 2008-2009


1 Atlanta 11.773 1 12.334 -4.5
2 Chicago O'Hare 7.966 2 8.956 -11.1
3 Dallas/Ft. Worth 7.570 3 7.883 -4.0
4 Denver 7.022 4 7.327 -4.2
5 Los Angeles 6.110 6 6.637 -7.9
6 Las Vegas 5.933 5 6.736 -11.9
7 Phoenix 5.838 7 6.438 -9.3
8 Orlando 5.186 8 5.861 -11.5
9 Charlotte 5.106 10 5.136 -0.6
10 Houston Bush 4.849 9 5.287 -8.3

Great example of lying with statistics. Yes, LAS is down 11.9%, however, LAS flying was only about 20% of west hours before the cutbacks. So this really only amounts to a 2.5% reduction of total west hours. PHX hours were only reduced by about 8%. So with these admittedly rough numbers, we're looking at a total reduction in west flying of 10 - 11%. But, there are now 21% fewer west pilots than there were at the time of the merger, so where did the other 10% go? THAT is flying that was transferred to the east, which does it cheaper, with less vacation and inferior trip & duty rigs and work rules. East metal currently does 8000 hours/month through PHX and LAS, but I'm sure you did that before the merger.

Interestingly, PHX and LAS on the above chart still have more enplanements than CLT, and no other east domicile is even listed.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Don't know why the Jan-Apr data was used since the latest is Jan-Jul (and just July if that floats your boat). That may have been the period that showed the greatest drop - as time goes by the year over year change decreases as the 2008 numbers include more months of reductions in service and traffic. Plus the summer months include the seasonal effects of more leisure travel. Or maybe because April is the latest month that includes international enplanements.

For the Jan-Jul comparisons IAH moved up to 6th compared to #10 in the Jan-APR ranking, PHX - LAS - CLT were 7 - 8 - 9 respectively. MCO dropped out of the top 10, replaced by JFK (#10). PHL generally runs in the #14-17 range based on enplanements although the cutbacks by all the legacy carriers and the drop in traffic have scrambled the rankings somewhat - using enplanements for all of 2008 only PHX and LAS were in the top 10.

Year to date reductions through July compared to same months in 2008 were PHX -7.5%, LAS -11.0%, CLT -0.5%. Of course, changes in enplanements don't directly correlate with changes in the number of flights or block hours. Using 2nd quarter year over year comparisons for US systemwide (sorta bridging the period between Apr and Jul 2009), enplanements were down 6.7%, departures were down 7.2% (7.5% more than enplanements), and block hours were down 6.0% (10.4% less than enplanements) - all mainline only.

Taking the long term view, LAS saw the peak in US mainline departures in Dec 2007. By Apr 2009 (the latest that includes international departures) the number had dropped 32.8%. For PHX the peak also came in Dec 2007 and had dropped 13.7% by April 2009. Obviously the departures saw a huge jump when a single certificate was issued - that when West departures were included in the US numbers. If anyone wants to go to the trouble of combining US and HP departures prior to that, have at it.

At PHL the peak actually came in BK2 - Dec 2004 - and had dropped 44.8% by Apr 2009 (although the low point was Feb 2009 with a 50.4% drop from the peak).For CLT you have to go back to Aug 2001 to find the highest number of US mainline departures (higher than PHL/PHX/LAS saw as far back as the data goes although the LAS/PHX data before single cert is only the "old" US. Compared to then, departures had dropped 32.8% by Apr 2009 (and like PHL, that wasn't the low point, which was Feb 2006. Using the same months as for LAS/PHX for consistency - Dec 2007 thru Apr 2009 - PHL departures increased by 0.2% and CLT departures increased by 6.4%.

Jim

 

[Megasnoop]

Mega,
The point I am trying to make is that I want to see guys get back to work. Period. I worry that USAPA may be tempted by the company and or the anti west club to massage things a bit. For example if the block hours are shifted back to the west that means the east suffers further reduction. This is in addition to the already (and not counting towards the TA limits) announced 190 reduction. If USAPA does the right thing they will most definitely be kicking their most valued constituents in the shorts while handing an apparent "lottery ticket" to the rogue west club. Frankly I think the company should take it in the shorts to make EVERYONE whole. I worry that because of this USAPA may elect to go with some form of lacking financial payment. Or simply give the company a pass if they forgo additional furloughs out east. Honestly how do they fix this? Frankly I could give a crap how bad this will effect the company as this mess is purely theirs.

Tiger, I agree with some what you said. JOBS, JOBS, JOBS! But this was a win for all and should not be turned into political intrigue that isn't there. We (E/W both) won the war, lets not lose the peace settlement due to bashing or paranoia. That said, the peace treaty terms should be all ours. This is NOT an ALPA-style out-of-court settlement conference with any give and take. The company flatout lost. They will have to comply and pay for the actual losses. I don't think they need to bring the hours back. But they got to pay, recall and upgrade as if the hours were back. Your characterization that USAPA is going to do some back-room deal doesn't do the cause any good. All back east know we're still separate, so what percentage West lost, you should be made whole, in kind. Back pay for furloughed pilots, jobs back, upgrades back, additional pay for lossses due to being knocked off a block holder to reserve.

Doing the right thing doesn't kick anyone in the shorts except the company. This constant bashing/paraonia really needs to stop. You got your guy on the settlement committee. One from each east and west. As it should be.

The E190s is a separate issue. They were never in the aircraft list. As we lose them, the East pilot alone will take the hit. That's the way it has to be. If blocks hours fall below the TA level as a result, then we just go back to Bloch. The issue is already settled.

IF the block hours shifted back to the West, then the East might go below TA limits. We've already won the grievance. Bloch still has jurisdiction. No need for another arbitration. The issue is done. I don't see any rabitt the company can pull out of their hat not refuse to comply. I also don't see them ticking off an arbitrator that will be handling future grievances.

One question for you, after #8 loss came out, some of your normal bashers did the "neener, neener, neener" thing, that USAPA didn't know what it was doing. When the #10 win came out, it was a shift to how's USAPA going to screw us. You don't have to thank USAPA, but do you think maybe we can put a stop to that kind of chat? At least until the remedy comes out? I'll bit my tongue on this side. Will you? (Ok, that was 2 questions)

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

Interestingly, PHX and LAS on the above chart still have more enplanements than CLT, and no other east domicile is even listed.

And also have the lowest yield of any hub / domicile...........

 

[BoeingBoy]

And also have the lowest yield of any hub / domicile...........

PHX and PHL are virtually tied in the latest data available - 0.04 cents difference.

Jim

 

[exB717Flyer]

This constant bashing/paraonia really needs to stop.

I hate to point out the obvious but the East assault on the Nicolau list and the Rico suit are still in progress. Our bashing/paranoia is well-justified. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[ClueByFour]

I hate to point out the obvious but the East assault on the Nicolau list and the Rico suit are still in progress. Our bashing/paranoia is well-justified. Actions speak louder than words.

I'm amazed that a union whose underlying/founding bedrock is to essentially screw another pilot group could seek (with a straight face) that the group to be screwed somehow dial back it's paranoia.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Great example of lying with statistics.
But, there are now 21% fewer west pilots than there were at the time of the merger, so where did the other 10% go? THAT is flying that was transferred to the east,

East metal currently does 8000 hours/month through PHX and LAS, but I'm sure you did that before the merger.

Talk about lying with statistics - there were roughly 3600 active US Airways pilots then, now down to 2590 today which is -28%.

I'll remember that 8000 number next time I see those AWA jets on the gate in CLT or any other city you never served either.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Tiger, I agree with some what you said. JOBS, JOBS, JOBS! But this was a win for all and should not be turned into political intrigue that isn't there. We (E/W both) won the war, lets not lose the peace settlement due to bashing or paranoia. That said, the peace treaty terms should be all ours. This is NOT an ALPA-style out-of-court settlement conference with any give and take. The company flatout lost. They will have to comply and pay for the actual losses. I don't think they need to bring the hours back. But they got to pay, recall and upgrade as if the hours were back. Your characterization that USAPA is going to do some back-room deal doesn't do the cause any good. All back east know we're still separate, so what percentage West lost, you should be made whole, in kind. Back pay for furloughed pilots, jobs back, upgrades back, additional pay for lossses due to being knocked off a block holder to reserve.

Doing the right thing doesn't kick anyone in the shorts except the company. This constant bashing/paraonia really needs to stop. You got your guy on the settlement committee. One from each east and west. As it should be.

The E190s is a separate issue. They were never in the aircraft list. As we lose them, the East pilot alone will take the hit. That's the way it has to be. If blocks hours fall below the TA level as a result, then we just go back to Bloch. The issue is already settled.

IF the block hours shifted back to the West, then the East might go below TA limits. We've already won the grievance. Bloch still has jurisdiction. No need for another arbitration. The issue is done. I don't see any rabitt the company can pull out of their hat not refuse to comply. I also don't see them ticking off an arbitrator that will be handling future grievances.

One question for you, after #8 loss came out, some of your normal bashers did the "neener, neener, neener" thing, that USAPA didn't know what it was doing. When the #10 win came out, it was a shift to how's USAPA going to screw us. You don't have to thank USAPA, but do you think maybe we can put a stop to that kind of chat? At least until the remedy comes out? I'll bit my tongue on this side. Will you? (Ok, that was 2 questions)

Mega,
Fair enough. I should and will reserve my judgment until we see the finished product. And you are right USAPA does deserve some praise for this. This could prove huge for a lot of guys/gals. Dave C. and Tracy P. have my deepest gratitude for the work they have done. Oh and Mitch too! I am really hoping this concludes quickly. My personal situation has foreclosure written all over it and time is of the essence... BUT! This is good news no matter how you slice it or dice it. Thank you to all those, both EAST and WEST, that discovered this and worked diligently to plead our case.

How was that?

 

[Megasnoop]

Mega,
Fair enough. I should and will reserve my judgment until we see the finished product. And you are right USAPA does deserve some praise for this. This could prove huge for a lot of guys/gals. Dave C. and Tracy P. have my deepest gratitude for the work they have done. Oh and Mitch too! I am really hoping this concludes quickly. My personal situation has foreclosure written all over it and time is of the essence... BUT! This is good news no matter how you slice it or dice it. Thank you to all those, both EAST and WEST, that discovered this and worked diligently to plead our case.

The finished product better resemble take no prisoners, 100% repay of damages to those hurt. And from what I hear the award WILL include damages, not just some cease and desist. I don't see shifting to cover anyone not damaged. That would be unfair. So, West gets its damages 100%. No siphoning off goodies to the east except what we're entitled to.

The Ex717 TWA guy needs to understand this is only about #10. No linkage to RICO, NIC/Addington, Article 29. In this discussion that only inflames. BTW, its dues money that made this happen. I hope thats not lost on those coming back, gettting upgrades, back pay. Maybe you can work on him. Nows not the time for cheap shots.

How was that?

Not bad

 

[luvn737s]

That said, the peace treaty terms should be all ours. This is NOT an ALPA-style out-of-court settlement conference with any give and take. The company flatout lost. They will have to comply and pay for the actual losses.

I think you'll have a hard time selling that unilateral, stomp-your-feet-until-you-get-your-way alternative to mature and rational negotiations, to the west pilots. That strategy hasn't produced anything positive so far, and it never will. Keep the end goal in sight and don't get distracted with vain displays of so-called strength that ultimately lead to embarassment and disappointment.

What many in the east fail to remember is that EVERYTHING is interrelated. Working relationships must be cultivated because they are very long term. Alliances among groups must be built and maintained. That is not to say that anything should be given away (like the Age 58 bypass was) but that victory should build on victory with a long-term time horizon.

The company sees that Cleary's tactics are unsustainable and that he will likely be removed from office, so they choose not to build those kinds of working relationships with revolving door leadership. Once the pilots of US see that sabre rattling can only be one part of a much larger approach to labor leadership, and they choose mature and confident leaders, will management take them seriously.

And in the end, USAPA could have the credibility and relevance it so desperately wants. But only if there is a major change in it's Napoleonic public attitude.

 

[Metroyet]

No siphoning off goodies to the east except what we're entitled to.

Like DOH?

Sorry dude, the core USAPA guys have ZERO credibility or integrity. They haven't EARNED one scintilla of trust from the West. If you took off your "ALPA hating, NIC. is senile" colored glasses perhaps you could understand that. So I guess you'll have to pardon my skepticism that USAPA can be trusted to do anything in the West's interest before their own. We haven't seen that once in the year and a half since this hare brained insurrection began.

See you in court.

 

[nic4us]

While actions speak louder than words, a few years of actions speak louder than 1 action no matter how noble - unless you're Catholic, I guess. Then saying a few "Hail Mary's" makes all the sins go away...

Jim

BB, I am not offended, but would like to try and point something out and draw a parallel to your statement.

Saying the "Hail Marys" does not make the sins go away. It is just a symbolic penance and/or a plea for intervention and assistance in changing ones behavior. The idea that a sense of remorse has brought the penitent to seek absolution infers that their regret will cause a change in actions.

It is the change in actions and a commitment to no longer sin that brings about forgiveness.

So here is how this fits into a labor thread and not a political thread.

In order for usapa to find unity amongst all pilots, they must (1) realize they have done wrong,(2) regret they have done wrong, (3)seek to right the wrong, then, (4) change their actions and do wrong no more. With the favorable ruling in the min block arbitration, usapa has shown a desire of attaining #4( i.e. usapa wants to be a legitimate union representing all USAirways pilots equally) , however, we still need to see #s 1,2 and 3, before any real progress toward pilot unity will take place.

Perhaps I will say a few Hail Marys, certainly cannot hurt the situation.

 

[nic4us]

Talk about lying with statistics - there were roughly 3600 active US Airways pilots then, now down to 2590 today which is -28%.

I'll remember that 8000 number next time I see those AWA jets on the gate in CLT or any other city you never served either.

I do not know where you got the 3600 number from but at the PID there were 2885 east pilots senior to Coello, and many of them were not active. So in essence you may still have a gain in employment since the PID if you currently have 2590 active.

Got to get your numbers straight before you can make statistical comparisons.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I do not know where you got the 3600 number from but at the PID there were 2885 east pilots senior to Coello, and many of them were not active. So in essence you may still have a gain in employment since the PID if you currently have 2590 active.

Got to get your numbers straight before you can make statistical comparisons.

I got it from the Nic award - read it.