US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Richard]

All,

We hope you all had a happy holiday.

As we start the new thread for Pilots Labor, a reminder -- PLEASE READ THE RULES OF THE BOARD AT THE TOP OF THIS FORUM.

Also, please refrain from quoting offensive posts which you know will be deleted anyway--if you quote a post with profanity, it just makes our job much harder....


We wish you all a Happy Healthy, Prosperous and Safe New Year!!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

From our resident USAPIAN end_of_ALPA:

I am looking at the West play book now and we are formulating a new plan "B".

First, it will take several months for the appeal to play out. No CBA.

Second, appeal to Supreme Court. No CBA.

Thirdly, if the anti-union Leonidas and the anti-union law firm succeed, the bankruptcy and dissolution of USAPA. No CBA. No Nicolau, no LOA 93, No transition agreement. EMPLOYMENT AT WILL.

The appeal was expedited. Expect your loss at the 9th to arrive within two to three weeks. Then you can apply to the SCOTUS to file a Writ of Certorari, but you'll get the denial from that within a matter of weeks. Finally, Leonidas is an entity created to preserve the LAWFULLY obtained seniority rights of the West pilots, and to prevent the UNLAWFUL removal of those rights. So far only one entity has acted unlawfully, and it was your organization.

Your organization is a closed shop union meaning it collects 1.95% of the paycheck from over 5,000 pilots. Hence, USAPA has an ability to pay, meaning it cannot meet the most basic requirement for bankruptcy, ie insolvency.

Your 1.95% plus assessements are going to pay for West damages and West attorney fees. If the majority want to decertify the union and go no-union, then go right ahead! We're not the ones shooting holes in airplanes, dragging tails, running off taxi-ways, three-engine taxiing, etc. See how far that stupid move will get you!

 

[boeingplt]

From Clearanddirect on the other thread

MDA law suit (east) ABOUT TO LOSE
DC Court AAA MEC v AWA MEC (east) DROPPED
RICO law suit (east union suing individuals) DISMISSED"

Those were filed long before the west WON our DFR case. Once again 180 degrees from the truth. Facts and reality it is time to find both."

You forgot one, oh great seeker of the full story...

Breeger DISMISSED - NOT RIPE

 

[cleardirect]

From Clearanddirect on the other thread

MDA law suit (east) ABOUT TO LOSE
DC Court AAA MEC v AWA MEC (east) DROPPED
RICO law suit (east union suing individuals) DISMISSED"

Those were filed long before the west WON our DFR case. Once again 180 degrees from the truth. Facts and reality it is time to find both."

You forgot one, oh great seeker of the full story...

Breeger DISMISSED - NOT RIPE

Looks like peeps are catching on! Plan b anyone???
laugh.gif


Maybe you can start taking individual east pilots to court! The westie way- sue your own union. SAD
Snowballs are burning.

Just to keep things in context. The west was accused of suing. I pointed out that it was the east union that started and more often used the courts. Breeger was not a west suit. Try and keep up.

 

[cleardirect]

End of ALPA

I am looking at the West play book now and we are formulating a new plan "B".

First, it will take several months for the appeal to play out. No CBA.

Second, appeal to Supreme Court. No CBA.

Thirdly, if the anti-union Leonidas and the anti-union law firm succeed, the bankruptcy and dissolution of USAPA. No CBA. No Nicolau, no LOA 93, No transition agreement. EMPLOYMENT AT WILL.

I DISAGREE with you on THIS POINT: The least risk prcess is for the company to keep the government out of the process, They've been to the Supreme Court once and received a favorable ruling regading seniority there...the company uses DOH for non-rev travel for ALL employees, the company uses DOH for promotion and furlough with all employees, the NICOLAU award CANNOT GO INTO EFFECT WITHOUT A UNION VOTE under the terms of the transition agreement (union created), so if the union disappears....no Transition agreement, NO AWARD!

In short, they have NO REASONABLE AND COMPELLING ISSUE that resolves giving you greater treatment for your years of service over mine. NONE! And there is where we find OUR protection....AGE/LONGEVITY discrimination. Remember, the company MUST have a good reason to integrate the pilots who are in the same craft or class by something other than what PAST PRACTICE and other employee groups have.

We then, Fourthly, form an LLC with a charter that protects the East pilots adversely affected by any seniority descision by the company implimenting a seniority system that all the other employee groups use by filing an EEOC claim as a class action group of pilots affected by disparate treatment.

Remeber, a seniority system in a union can have some disparate treatment if, as a whole, the majority have a vested outcome (majority vote). Here, an EEOC claim- a legally STATUTORY FEDERAL RIGHT (as opposed to a union process..aka nicolau) - IS a protected right as disparate treatment if:

All other employees use a DOH seniority system

Some employees (517) got their DOH which is normal treatment by the company for all employees
Some employees (1500 West pilots) got greater treatment by the company for SOME employees
Some employees (3000 East pilots) got LESSOR treatment by the company for THESE employees

The EEOC is our only protection and we intend to use it. At this point in time, I would say that the U in Union has be removed by US Airways (lucky for them) AND by an anti-labor corporation and that we now have an ONION....every slice they take are causing more tears and pain among the pilots that they are shortly going to fractionalize into a situation where the FAA is going to get involved and have to take a side on safety.

The real question is what level of involvement the FAA will do.

In short, the only way to ultimately fix this is the dissolution of the union for pilots at US Airways and form a company run committee similar to what Jet Blue has.

For me, I'm going to the EEOC. Read about it here, EAST PILOTS! Remember, this can be your only chance to get your FEDERALLY PROTECTED RIGHTS.

Wow, that is quite a little scheme you have worked out.

A couple small problems. Since the east pilots forced single carrier status on us any corporation that the east forms to advance east pilots would be considered discriminatory. The courts and this administration hate discrimination.

Second using age as a factor is illegal. Whether it is giving advantage or discriminating because of someone’s age older or younger. So you see when you try and get seniority because you are older I will call the EEOC and scream discrimination because I was disadvantaged by my younger age. Better rethink your plan.

What other employee groups did has no bearing on what pilots do? The court did not care.

BTW if the east pilots throw a temper tantrum and get rid of usapa. If what you say is true the company can impose conditions. Better be careful what you wish for. The company under oath and in writing said that they have accepted the Nicolau list. If they simply impose working conditions and a contract what reasons would they have for not using the Nicolau? What would the new weak corporation do to stop the company from doing so?
Past practice? Would that be how Empire and Trump shuttle integrated? Would that be how NWA/DAL integrated? Would the company do what AA did to TWA? Are these the past practices you are referring?

Also enjoy PBS if this happens, better make friends with someone that knows the system. Bye bye bid sheets.

Why all of the crazy schemes now to kill usapa and use some other legal avenues? Not so confident about the ninth circuit anymore? What happened to the usapa that came to PHX and told use no problem they can do what they want and the company will just give you DOH. Why the silly scheme, what happened to Seham/usapa supremely confident that the law was on your side that Rakestraw would protect usapa from DFR?

If the east kills usapa and we do become at will. The two parties to an individual contract will be the pilot and the company imposed conditions. You can accept the terms or leave. What will your DOH be worth trying to find work at Virgin America? Also reputations follow, not sure how accepting airlines would be of US Airways pilots (east). A group of pilots that killed two unions trying to dodge their legal obligations, just how trustworthy would you be as employee?. But you let us know how the EEOC interview goes when you tell them that you want to discriminate against younger people and that you deserve something because of your age. That should be interesting.

Try telling them that all women should be junior to men, see how that works out.

 

[boeingplt]

Just to keep things in context. The west was accused of suing. I pointed out that it was the east union that started and more often used the courts. Breeger was not a west suit. Try and keep up.

Is that why you put the results of the cases listed in bold print? The connection between Breeger and SFO is about the war, what you mentioned were but minor skirmishes. Keeping up just fine, thanks.

 

[boeingplt]

Try telling them that all women should be junior to men, see how that works out.

If they were hired after the men then yes, with reasonable conditions and restrictions of course.

Come to think of it, if the men statistically were advancing more quickly than the women prior to the merger then common sense says that they would continue to do so forever and therefore some of the men who were hired after the women should be placed ahead of them....oh wait a minute, that's your line. Sorry

 

[cleardirect]

If they were hired after the men then yes, with reasonable conditions and restrictions of course.

Come to think of it, if the men statistically were advancing more quickly than the women prior to the merger then common sense says that they would continue to do so forever and therefore some of the men who were hired after the women should be placed ahead of them....oh wait a minute, that's your line. Sorry

Listen to the ninth audio. The question was about discrimination not age, DOH or a favored minority group.

 

[cleardirect]

Is that why you put the results of the cases listed in bold print? The connection between Breeger and SFO is about the war, what you mentioned were but minor skirmishes. Keeping up just fine, thanks.

Breeger and Addington are not connected.

Minor skirmish? huh I guess the loss in federal court passed you by. When the ninth rules against you will that be the end of the war?

BTW again the post was about west suing the union. My point was that east was first but thanks for pointing out another example of east pilot suing the union, and losing.

So far the west has filed one suit and won. the east has filed four suits and lost three with one to go. Not a good record.

 

[boeingplt]

Listen to the ninth audio. The question was about discrimination not age, DOH or a favored minority group.

I did listen. The question was actually about if the stated intent to place women behind men would be considered ripe.

 

[700UW]

I take it End of Alpa doesnt realize Seeham has represented El Al and Alitalia against unions.

 

[cleardirect]

I did listen. The question was actually about if the stated intent to place women behind men would be considered ripe.

Yep! And the stated intent of usapa is to discriminate against the west. Going to the EEOC and using age to discriminate against the west also shows intent.

My rights are also federally protect not to be discriminated against because of age. which was the whole point to the poster. He thinks that age will get him some right that arbitration or the courts would not.

 

[end_of_alpa]

End of ALPA

Wow, that is quite a little scheme you have worked out.

A couple small problems. Since the east pilots forced single carrier status on us any corporation that the east forms to advance east pilots would be considered discriminatory. The courts and this administration hate discrimination.

Second using age as a factor is illegal. Whether it is giving advantage or discriminating because of someone’s age older or younger. So you see when you try and get seniority because you are older I will call the EEOC and scream discrimination because I was disadvantaged by my younger age. Better rethink your plan.

What other employee groups did has no bearing on what pilots do? The court did not care.

BTW if the east pilots throw a temper tantrum and get rid of usapa. If what you say is true the company can impose conditions. Better be careful what you wish for. The company under oath and in writing said that they have accepted the Nicolau list. If they simply impose working conditions and a contract what reasons would they have for not using the Nicolau? What would the new weak corporation do to stop the company from doing so?
Past practice? Would that be how Empire and Trump shuttle integrated? Would that be how NWA/DAL integrated? Would the company do what AA did to TWA? Are these the past practices you are referring?

Also enjoy PBS if this happens, better make friends with someone that knows the system. Bye bye bid sheets.

Why all of the crazy schemes now to kill usapa and use some other legal avenues? Not so confident about the ninth circuit anymore? What happened to the usapa that came to PHX and told use no problem they can do what they want and the company will just give you DOH. Why the silly scheme, what happened to Seham/usapa supremely confident that the law was on your side that Rakestraw would protect usapa from DFR?

If the east kills usapa and we do become at will. The two parties to an individual contract will be the pilot and the company imposed conditions. You can accept the terms or leave. What will your DOH be worth trying to find work at Virgin America? Also reputations follow, not sure how accepting airlines would be of US Airways pilots (east). A group of pilots that killed two unions trying to dodge their legal obligations, just how trustworthy would you be as employee?. But you let us know how the EEOC interview goes when you tell them that you want to discriminate against younger people and that you deserve something because of your age. That should be interesting.

Try telling them that all women should be junior to men, see how that works out.

What are you talking about? Discrimination against OLDER workers, without some rational basis, is ILLEGAL! You better get your facts straight.

I have an EEOC claim against the company for discrimination BECAUSE of my age/correlative years of service in relation to you (but only when the company decides to join the lists...not before, which is called NOT RIPE because we still HAVE a union!).

Why don't you go to the EEOC website and read for yourself. What rational basis, with employment at will, do YOU have a greater right and lessor years of service than mine? That is WHY we have the EEOC...just like they asked in court. When will a claim for discrimination of women over men become ripe? When the CBA is RATIFIED! NOT BEFORE! Age discrimination/longevity/tenure has always been correlative to OLDER workers...not YOUNGER! Read the act: applies to those whose age is 40 years OR MORE!!!

Deserve something because of my AGE??? What have you been smoking...THE COMPANY has to prove their reason to discriminate YOUR years of service over mine. The burden of proof rests with THEM! Go to the EEOC website and EDUCATE yourself about age discrimination.

Age Discrimination & Employment Policies/Practices
An employment policy or practice that applies to everyone, regardless of age, can be illegal if it has a negative impact on applicants or employees age 40 or older and is not based on a reasonable factor other than age.

We don't have ANY award unless and until a CBA IS RATIFIED. Until then, ANY process in the negotiating pipeline is not completed until ALL processes are completed. Even Judge Wakr AFFIRMED...repeat....AFFIRMED that premise!!!

I'll tell you what. Why don't you go to the USAPA website and red the companies position letter to the NMB in answer to Cleary's letter. This sum's it up very well. USAPA "reopened" many of the other sections that were tentativly agreed to before and are renegotiating them as well. Does that allow AOL to sue for THOSE sections TOO? Think about it.

Again, what we have now is NOT a union, we have an ONION and the only way from this point forward is to chop up (which is what WEST pilots WANT) and dissolve the union and go to employment at will. Let's let the company support those who will compete the most for the least. JUST THE WAY WEST PILOTS WANT IT...with an ANTI-UNION corporation and law firm.

Guys, it's time to give the West pilots what they want.

See you ALL on the line!

 

[end_of_alpa]

I take it End of Alpa doesnt realize Seeham has represented El Al and Alitalia against unions.

OK. So ALL lawyers hate unions. I get the point.

I say again...let's get to employment at will and be done with it.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You forgot one, oh great seeker of the full story...
Breeger DISMISSED - NOT RIPE

A union's constitution does not define its DFR. Hence, Breeger is not a true DFR case. All Breeger stands for is the proposition that pilots who are also lawyers should stick to flying airplanes.