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US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

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If only USAPA had experience in negotiating with Parker. I hope they aren't too surprised to see a "Gone Fishin'" sign on Parker's door for the next 5-6 years. And if they happen to get another wish out of their genie and get their snapbacks, I predict Parker (or his much less genial successor) would open east bases for west pilots to keep costs in check.

So will they keep the support of grey heads who are kept from building up their retirement nest egg by continuing to back the stone heads at the helm of USAPA? I think not. USAPA will likely not be a party to the next contract placed before the pilots, only a painful regret of wasted time and money.
 
Wow, going from, no way you win the appeal. To now, your going to be thrown out.

I think the win on the appeal, has changed alot of minds on the direction of USAPA......

Now if they can continue and come to a level headed idea of how to handle the integration....
 
If only USAPA had experience in negotiating with Parker. I hope they aren't too surprised to see a "Gone Fishin'" sign on Parker's door for the next 5-6 years. And if they happen to get another wish out of their genie and get their snapbacks, I predict Parker (or his much less genial successor) would open east bases for west pilots to keep costs in check.

So will they keep the support of grey heads who are kept from building up their retirement nest egg by continuing to back the stone heads at the helm of USAPA? I think not. USAPA will likely not be a party to the next contract placed before the pilots, only a painful regret of wasted time and money.
I'm guessing the government mediator will know which fishing hole to find him hiding at. He'll abide by the RLA or suffer "self help" by a unified pilot force.
 
I think that thses are the core of the issues being debated.

The interpretation that the union can negotiate anything it desires without regard to the west pilot’s interests as long as a CBA gets membership ratification is, in my opinion, misguided.

Please recall that the District Court stated the union has a right to negotiate away from the Nic as long as it was for “a legitimate union objective”. I believe that is the same logic behind the phrase that “that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA.” This follows from the Rakestraw decision, (UAL seniority dispute), that implicitly defined a union’s fundamental right to freely negotiate seniority, even if it is discriminatory, (by definition seniority is a zero sum issue – someone’s gain is another’s loss) as long as the action benefits the bargaining group as a whole.

The whole ALPA v USAPA policy or procedures argument is, I think, misplaced because the TA, (read amended CBA) describes the process.

I believe that the most important part of this decision comes from paragraph 5 of the majority's opinion:

At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA.


Meaning, what will the company accept? Will the company defer to the union for the current proposal they have submitted, or because of fear of legal liability insist on the Nic? Remember uncle Al testified by deposition at the trial that the company has never entertained anything other than the Nic for Section 22. The company has not been eager for a contract, (they have been very miserly, and opposed the NMB mediator), and unless another transaction or event occurs to change their outlook, I believe they will continue to delay. The above snippet gives the company the opportunity to frustrate the negotiation process under cover of the 9th Circuit’s opinion by insisting on the Nic.

Just trying to provoke thought and not rhetoric.
My take- the 9th is backing Wake down. He went too deep into this internal union issue. The 9th is not taking a stand, only postulating that certain scenarios are possible, that will work. The Nic is not set in stone. It is "our baby" to handle via USAPA. The 9th is NOT backing USAPA into a corner. Only recognizing Wake was deeply meddling and they are not going to dictate what happens, as long as the majority of this pilot group is represented going forward, with the obvious duty to fairly represent . Honoring the Nic is clearly implied as not mandated as a condition of fair representation. Only Bybee goes here, and he is outnumbered. This gives a green light to go full bore on the negotiating process for all the pilots here, without the Nic hanging over us. Heminway stating the company "has never entertained anything other than the Nic for Section 22" had meaning only up till Friday. He has no other choice now. The company has no opportunity under cover of the 9th. The 9th has made it abundantly clear the Nic is an option only. How can they insist on the Nic? There is no basis for them to do this, especially now. The entire matter became incredibly transparent Friday, making the company's option more limited. I do not get your explanation at all. This thing became incredibly clear thanks to the 9th. USAPA is totally in the clear with the Nic. It can use it,or not use it at its' option. The majority option. "At this point neither the West pilots or USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of a CBA" is just a statement that nobody really knows at this point where we will end up with the list. Not that we have to use the Nic as the list the company insists on. Merely a statement from the 9th of the reality that nobody really knows what we will walk into Parkers' office with. All true, not guidance or threat. Just a statement of fact. The 9th is clearly stating our own determination of the seniority list, with our knowledge we will be beholden to fairly represent. It is up to us.
 
And reduced to as few words as possible, that's exactly what it said - no disagreement there.



Also true. What they didn't say, although you wouldn't know it from posts by some, is that USAPA is free to negotiate a DOH list. The part you didn't quote seem important to me - either USAPA equally represents the West or is subject to a ripe DFR suit. I saw nothing in the ruling that indicated that the Nic was unfair, a "lottery ticket" for the West, etc, so my opinion is that the starting point for measuring equal representation in the seniority debate is the Nic - USAPA doesn't have to use the Nic but anything less favorable to the West - fencing them into PHX, for example - could certainly be grounds for a successful DFR suit.

Jim

Good god man ...you are so blinded by your Stockholm syndrome self and your self hatred
and direct hatred towards the very people who sacrificed sooooomuch to keep this dog alive..
the fence also keeps easties out........you don't get it and never will. Anything LESS favorable
than NIC.,,,,,,,what are you smoking dude......It needs to be fair....NIC is NOT the reference point
anymore for fair.....sooooooo many people have tried to tell you that....HELLO you there you getting this!!!!!!!!!!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB
 
...
The interpretation that the union can negotiate anything it desires without regard to the west pilot’s interests as long as a CBA gets membership ratification is, in my opinion, misguided.

...

There is no injunction. The union can negotiate whatever it wants. Yes, of course once it is ratified then its open season on suing, just like it would be if ALPA was still here or if any other union was the lawful representative.

Interestingly, ALPA's strategy to defend themselves against a DFR in the seniority integration is simply to force the two sides to abandon any rights to sue by agreeing to forever abide by the whims of a third party, which by signatures under duress, the results are assuredly "fair," before either side knows what they will be.

USAPA's means of defending themselves from an eventual DFR suit will simply be they have done what was in the interest of all the pilots they represent (ie. the pilot group as a whole). The union can negotiate what it deems reasonable to further the interests of the union as a whole. There is no limit of examples of what is reasonable. You don't even have to go to another company.
 
And reduced to as few words as possible, that's exactly what it said - no disagreement there.



Also true. What they didn't say, although you wouldn't know it from posts by some, is that USAPA is free to negotiate a DOH list. The part you didn't quote seem important to me - either USAPA equally represents the West or is subject to a ripe DFR suit. I saw nothing in the ruling that indicated that the Nic was unfair, a "lottery ticket" for the West, etc, so my opinion is that the starting point for measuring equal representation in the seniority debate is the Nic - USAPA doesn't have to use the Nic but anything less favorable to the West - fencing them into PHX, for example - could certainly be grounds for a successful DFR suit.

Jim

And by the way BB and for you too HP. You can go back to all of your posts and delete any reference to :Found guilty of a DFR"
the 9th has made it such that those words never existed.....Courts do that sometimes!!!!!!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB
 
And reduced to as few words as possible, that's exactly what it said - no disagreement there.



Also true. What they didn't say, although you wouldn't know it from posts by some, is that USAPA is free to negotiate a DOH list. The part you didn't quote seem important to me - either USAPA equally represents the West or is subject to a ripe DFR suit. I saw nothing in the ruling that indicated that the Nic was unfair, a "lottery ticket" for the West, etc, so my opinion is that the starting point for measuring equal representation in the seniority debate is the Nic - USAPA doesn't have to use the Nic but anything less favorable to the West - fencing them into PHX, for example - could certainly be grounds for a successful DFR suit.

Jim

And one more thing oh wise one.......treating the West fairly doesn't mean that a 17 year never furloughed guy gets put below the 3 month new hire.....
ain't gonna happen. Hey George N. you reading this!!!!!!!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB
 
It appears to me after reading some comments that Mike Cleary's President's letter published yesterday appears to lack vision and could not have been reviewed by his legal team before it was distributed. From USAPA's perspective his ill-advised injudicious letter he has given advanced "in-your-face" testimony to the Full 11-Member Ninth Circuit Court illustrating USAPA is going to continue on their "unquestionably ripe (for) DFR" self-destructive negotiating path.

Cleary said, "This decision allows USAPA, which represents all US Airways pilots, to freely bargain for the terms of its seniority integration."

However, Judge Bybee's dissenting opinion states, "One does not have to await the consummation of threatened injury to obtain preventative relief. If the injury is certainly impending, that is enough."”

Cleary' comment leaves little room for the Full 9th to doubt that injury to the West pilots is certainly impending and supports Bybee's opinion that injury is certainly pending when Cleary states in his letter that, "The decision allows USAPA to freely bargain for the terms of its seniority integration."

All of which could lead to a reversal of the majority opinion and upholding of the decision of the District court, when the Plaintiffs petition the 9th Circuit to hear the case en banc. Then when the Full 9th Circuit rules we may find out that Cleary couldn' have been more wrong when he said, "with the Company's recent demonstration of renewed motivation and cooperation, coupled with a resolution of this case, many of the significant impediments we faced in gaining a contract have been removed."

The Addington case is not resolved nor will it be any time soon. Therefore, it appears that the impediments to a contract have not been removed and Cleary just supported Judge Bybee' opinion, which will obviously be noted by the Full Ninth Circuit Court, and again, could cause a reversal of the majority opinion and upholding of the decision of the District Court. I'm sure Marty Harper has already taken note of this, and if I was a USAPA supporter, I could not be more upset with Cleary' actions.

Regards,

USA320Pilot
 
There is no injunction.

Actually, that is not yet true. The decision handed down has a period of time for which a further appeal to the SCOTUS or en banc 9th Circuit can be made before the case would be dismissed by Judge Wake. So it isn't quite over yet as far as the current case is concerned. If the Addington plaintiffs fail to do either of the above within the time limits than Judge Wake would go ahead and dismiss the case.
 
Do you try to understand what you read before you post? ALL USAIRWAYS PILOTS!!!!!!
[/quote]

Cleary said, “This decision allows USAPA, which represents all US Airways pilots, to freely bargain for the terms of its seniority integration.”


[/quote]
 
Actually, that is not yet true. The decision handed down has a period of time for which a further appeal to the SCOTUS or en banc 9th Circuit can be made before the case would be dismissed by Judge Wake. So it isn't quite over yet as far as the current case is concerned. If the Addington plaintiffs fail to do either of the above within the time limits than Judge Wake would go ahead and dismiss the case.
Um, no. Wrong again. If not heard en banc, which I would think is not likely, the verdict will be dismissed, per the 9th. That means, in order to prevail, the plaintiffs will have to file a new suit, go to trial and await the outcome. Chances that it will be considered "ripe" this time: pretty slim until a contract is ratified.

Start passing the plate again. Harper doesn't work for free.
 
US320, I guess your next post will be tallking how the UAL merger is a done deal?!?!?!? A top secret unnamed corporate transaction?????

Did the voices tell you this?
 
I'm guessing the government mediator will know which fishing hole to find him hiding at. He'll abide by the RLA or suffer "self help" by a unified pilot force.
Make that "something well south of 60% of the pilot force". USAPA is running 3 shifts to put out their quota of line crossers. (Of course we all know there will never be a line, but oldy doesn't).

You do know the history of AWA pilots negotiating with Parker, don't you?
 
Actually, that is not yet true. The decision handed down has a period of time for which a further appeal to the SCOTUS or en banc 9th Circuit can be made before the case would be dismissed by Judge Wake. So it isn't quite over yet as far as the current case is concerned. If the Addington plaintiffs fail to do either of the above within the time limits than Judge Wake would go ahead and dismiss the case.


Wake has not yet pulled out his pen to take action to dismiss the case, but if you intend to imply that his next use of the pen regarding Addington will be anything other than to dismiss, then you are smokin crack.

I have no doubt that USAPA is already moving ahead with a strategy to represent all USAir pilots, sans fear of Wake's pen.
 
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