US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Freighterguynow]

Has the company said anything under oath as to what list they plan to use Nic or DOH?

At the last Crew News #2 said a merger with United would solve the seniority dispute because the process would start all over again.

I don't think the company is as set on the Nic as some would like to believe - though I don't believe the USAPA proposal goes far enough for the West pilots either.

 

[Coach Cabin]

What a time to take a long weekend. I don't agree with the court, but that's life.

Still trying to sort this out, busy week though, running some investigations and trying to get 250 angry people signed up with benefits.

But, if I were Parker, I'd be smiling, because there isn't gonna be a contract for a while

Flame on

There is nothing to "sort out". The 9th gave USAPA just enough rope to hang itself. This should be enjoyable.

 

[luvthe9]

There is nothing to "sort out". The 9th gave USAPA just enough rope to hang itself. This should be enjoyable.

Some other organization got the short rope Friday...........It is call the Army of Leonidas. There was a different outcome from long ago. This one even lost their website.

 

[Beancounter]

Hi Cleard,

DFR=$$$

From what I have heard, the Addington case has cost the west well over 1 Mil, of which it has actually paid $120,000. When you all finish paying your fine barristers, which, BTW won't come from your now cancelled damages trial, where are you going to find the even bigger $$$ to pay for a new frivolous case????

You reap what you sow, and in a desert without water you can't reap all that much!

If you're hoping to outspend the west I think you're in for a surprise. Prior to the merger AWA was a very enjoyable place to work (from what I've heard that is no longer the case). I flew with a surprising number of captains who flew for AWA as a hobby. One fellow I remember showed me a picture of his 275 alloy bodied Ferrari and his gorgeous house in Sedona. He even kept a sailboat in San Diego. Another guy had a practice in California. I doubt the same can be said for the east. Besides the only people getting rich off both sides fighting are the lawyers and management.

 

[Beancounter]

Heard a west guy (belive it was an F/O) got his clocked cleaned in a fight in the Sim building (east) after mouthing off to an east guy for a while, supposedly security and the cops were called, anyone else hear of this incident?

You hear stories like this, but all of the east pilots i've met except for one were really cool. The jerk was a little putz FO with a bright yellow DOH sticker on his bag who couldn't have beat his way out of a wet paper sack. On the flip side I've had east captains pull me of coach and stick me in first class, very classy guys.

 

[Real tired]

story

 

[cleardirect]

Clear ...Dude you are beyond hope. The 9th specifically mentioned the
finding in the Dist. Ct. that USAPA was founded to circumvent the NIC
and they DID NOT CARE. Seriously Dude you need to read the opinion.
The next case will be full blown....then we can put on Dean Collello and
ask him how he feels about a 2 month newbie being senior to him with 17 years
and spend a few days on parity.........and the show stopper will be the fact that
20-30 Easties a month are retiring (by then) and NIC would have given 80%
of those seats to West. Don't bring a slingshot to an intellectual gunfight.

NPJB

I think that you are missing it. What you are talking has already happened. It was during the arbitration. DC got on the stand and shead his tears about how unfair he thought it was. Courts do not care how someone "feels". It is what you can prove. You guys made you case about attrition and your other little cripes. Nicolau listen to them and decided.

A federal judge is not going to redo an arbitration. That is what you are looking for. The judge would be overstepping if he tried this. Because Nicolau still holds juristiction.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Does anybody know what percentage of cases asks for an en banc hearing, and what percentage actually gets one? My guess is that most ask, but most don't get one. Anybody got numbers?

 

[cleardirect]

Yea, and let the jury hear how the West has made MUCH more money in the last .....by the time it gets to trial....7 years AND lost 10-20 years of seniority....
lets see how that plays in Peoria........The next Judge will not move nearly as fast as Wake. Count on it. What witnesses are ya gonna call to explain your opposition to pay parity.
My guess.......you do a LOT worse under the next Judge. ...not better. Take your best shot.......or come to the table.

NPJB

Separate contracts remember. What we make now and what you make have no relevance to what usapa puts in the contract.

Pay parity. What have we heard for so long. That was an ALPA deal and ALPA is not here anymore. So what is it? Does ALPA and the Nicolau count or does ALPA and pay parity count? They both count or none of them count.

Usapa is the bargaining agent and must represent everyone fairly. A DFR will be about what usapa did or does, nothing else.

Strange comment. Or come to the table. To do what? The east is the majority, Cleary has said that you can bargain for anything you want. What do you need us for? Exactly who do you think can come to the table and what do we have you want?

You guys think that you can negotiate for DOH and take 90% of the benefits of this contract and get away clean. Give it a try. We will wait. Injunction in hand, another federal judge in the desert willing to do it all again. We have seen the Seham defense and are prepared. You guys enjoy your week and let the reality sink in for awhile.

Keep avoiding the Nicolau and your 60 year olds will retire under LOA 93.What a shame to give up $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 a year in those last years. Maybe after retirement they can hang around and hope the AFOC will be kind and buy them a beer once in awhile for their sacrifice.

 

[Freebird]

In 2008, US Airways pilots voted to replace the Air Line Pilots Association with USAPA because a seniority ruling by arbitrator George Nicolau appeared to favor pilots from America West over pilots from the pre-merger US Airways.



Cleary said USAPA has already spent more than $1 million fighting the seniority battle in court and he assumes that west pilots, whose court battle is funded by donations, have spent a similar amount.
"Many other airlines have a history of pounding their merger partners, but all that does is to promote acrimony," Cleary said. "I'm not interested in that. We are going resolve this issue, and we are going to [u]resolve it in a fair way." [/u]
-Ted Reed article 6/7/10



Fair to whom? The East pilots furloughed at the time of the merger? USAPA has a duty, clearly defined by the ninth to protect the West, any harm results in DFR. Any questions? Ask Cleary.

 

[Freebird]

Clear, come on now enough is enough you lost plain and simple your were led down the wrong road by Ferguson. It's time to take the loss like a man!!!!

Ironic how you suggest he "take the loss like a man", shall we use the East group's reaction of establishing a new union, and use its majority to underhandely avoid the NIC Award as an example of how to take it "like a man"? Under Nicolau, you got what you negotiated. The Arbitrator settled our dispute using a time tested fashion. Yet, you failed to "take it like a man". Your group lacks integrity.

Remember, USAPA must be fair. Ball is in their court. Time for results.

Tread carefully, my friend...

 

[Phoenix]

I tend to agree with your prediction. Unfortunately, thus far this case has been decided by federal judges based on their political leanings and there is no reason to think future rulings will be any different. Liberal democrat appointed judges will rarely rule objectively when a labor union is one of the litigants because the rule of law and blind objectivity take a backseat to rewarding the hand that feeds you. Wake and Bybee have no such allegiance to the big labor unions and they ruled based on the facts of the case. They had no predetermined prejudice against either party and the rule of law was upheld in their decisions. However, the 9th is so politically motivated and stacked to the liberal left that an en banc ruling will likely yield the same politically-motivated ruling as the three-judge panel.

As far as I’m concerned the courts will no longer provide an avenue for justice to be served. It’s up to management now to either go along with USAPA’s planned intention to unfairly represent the West through its DOH policy or to hold firm their position that section 22 is no longer negotiable with the NIC award having been accepted. If they choose to get in bed with the unscrupulous USAPA leadership, then West pilots will have a very tough road to climb after USAPA passes a new CBA via ratification. A DFR win is still possible but by no means assured based on the biased views of the courts. If the company is intransigent with regard to the NIC, then the stalemate will continue for a very long time to come. This matter has never lacked significant intrigue and I guess that will continue for a long time to come as well.

Oh, OK. I see. It was just a bad call.

But for a bad call Armando Galarraga had a perfect game. And he has a video to prove it. Where's the West's video? I've seen one with a goat in it. Anything else?

 

[Phoenix]

X2

 

[oscarjazz]

I think everyone is probably reading way too much into this decision, which essentially returns USAPA to status quo two years ago. Every union has a right to renegotiate their seniority list at any time, they don't need a merger or an arbitration to trigger that. However, if they renegotiate a seniority list, they have to show that it is non-discriminatory or they have to show that a larger union purpose will be served by the discrimination. Seniority is zero-sum, if I move up a number then someone else moves down a number. It is tough to show non-discrimination in seniority matters. The idea that date of hire is a legitimate union objective is not going to fly in court.

The central question that seemed to be answered is that the Nicolau list is the reference point in deciding non-discrimination. USAPA is not free to begin a do-over and re-litigate the original seniority dispute. ALPA was free to modify the Nicolau award and attempted to do so at Wye River. It would have been easier to show non-discrimination with a two party process, because the AWA Merger Committee was independent and would have had to ratify the changes. That independent stamp of approval would go a long way to show non-discrimination.

USAPA has a steeper hill to climb. They are also free to modify the Nicolau award, but is has been shown fairly conclusively that USAPA was formed primarily to discriminate against the AWA pilots and is clearly an instrument of the AAA pilots. Any list that is remotely akin to their original DOH proposal to the company will get crushed in court. They don't get to measure "pre-merger expectations" any more. You have to measure "post-merger expectations" and that measure will start with the arbitration award. The idea that USAPA can get away with a wholesale restructuring of the list is pretty far fetched.

The final question mark is what will the company's reaction be. I can't imagine the company agreeing to significantly modify the arbitration award, because that will put them on the hook for potential damages that could run into hundreds of millions. They were a party to the transition agreement that established the seniority list and they can't just walk away from that without liability. I can't imagine the NMB would react favorably to a seniority proposal that puts such a huge burden on the company and is essentially a neutral for the pilots (someone gains, someone loses).

So USAPA is transported back in time to 2008 and gets to start anew. They will either accept the Nicolau list or something very close to that, or they will get parked for many years. That will be a tough decision for them.

 

[Phoenix]

..The central question that seemed to be answered is that the Nicolau list is the reference point in deciding non-discrimination. ..

Earlier today the CEO of BP announced that the newly oil soaked marshes experienced a non-discriminatory action, and are thus the new reference point for environmental conservation standards.