US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[ROACLT]

Um...you have not been paying attention for the last 2 years. usapa's DOH proposal and constitutionally mandated DOH has been found to be discriminatory in a federal court. All the 9th has said is it will not stick until it is passed in a CBA.

Pass anything other than the Nic, "unquestionably ripe" DFR. The merits of the case have not changed, you will lose again.

Before you all go there, I already know, Nicolau was senile, Wake has no understanding of the law, the jury was corrupt, etc,etc,etc,

Sorry, but as far as the law is concerned, what happened in Phoenix District court never happened. Even so the jury really had no choice as to the way they ruled, as Wake tried improperly to narrow the issues so much that they could not find any other way. USAPA never got to present evidence to the fairness of its seniority list, or defend a legitimate claim in "breach of good faith", because of evidentiary rulings and jury instruction. Please reread the trial transcripts, Wake made the case only about the Nicalou award and USAPA's requirement to use it. The case had nothing to do with DOH, nor was it ever on trial or found discriminatory, only that USAPA proposed something other than Nicalou and every ruling of Wake's narrowed the whole case to that point.

I think it is telling that even though the 9th circuit only commented on the jurisdictional aspect of the case and therefore did not address the other 4 issues of the appeal, they made it an issues to define the Nicalou award as nothing more than part of union process and a "seniority proposal." They also clarified that USAPA is not bound to the Nicalou award, is free to bargain without interference and defined their legal obligation as far a case being ripe with a ratified contract to bargain in "good faith", for all pilots East and West. The same obligation every union has. They didn't just pull the words "good faith" out of the ether. That is well defined legal standard as it relates to a union's responsibility. Again, that standard is that the union's behavior as it relates to a good faith requirement be within a wide range of reasonable action. Not a narrow, or a medium range but a wide range.

 

[Freighterguynow]

. it will be APA+west pilots vs USAPA and that makes them very afraid. I would recommend that AOL principals begin or continue developing alliances with the APA leadership to ensure any attempted land grab from the east is completely stifled.

The junior Captain at American is 1992 DOH so, plenty of 18+ year First Officers over there to ' reach out ' to.

Afraid? Nope.

 

[cleardirect]

You really don't understand much about labor law, especially as it relates to seniority. If you were to try to do something 5-6 years from now, it could not be arbitrary or capricious. You will also be dealing with a single list that has been seasoned or codified withing a collective bargaining agreement. I.e., it will not be a proposal at said time. You also neglect that as your pilots group ages and its average longevity increases, sentiments will change whether you want to admit or not. More likely than not, with the next 5 years US Airways will be merged yet again.

Sorry to inform you but the courts have long held that seniority and longevity are vested over time as part of the organized labor movement and have always been upheld as fair and whether you like the term or not, a "gold standard" within the labor movement. Maybe as a generation x'er or y'er or whatever it is now, you may perceive standing in line behind someone who has been around longer but the courts never have in any merger or labor integration.

You complain about litigation but ALPA has had as many as 6-7 DRF suits against it at one time. How much of your union dues was going for those legal fees? At least USAPA is defending and spending dues for legal fees incurred for an issue directly related to your pilot group, not an issue between ALPA and some other party. It's America and people can file lawsuits all the time and any entity with money will always be a target. No organization can ever please every subset of workers it represents and to expect USAPA to never have to defend itself is wholly unrealistic.

I believe that under the ALPA structure, 65% of dues was retained or used at the National level or in the case of US Airways about 6.5 million dollars of the 10 million in annual dues. If USAPA is spending 1 million in annual litigation, litigation mind you, directly related to your issues unlike ALPA, your group is still the net beneficiary of 5.5 million dollars annually of dues to be spent purely on your pilot groups issues.

No No No. You all have told us that seniority is negotiable. It can be negotiated at any time as long as there is a legitimate reason. The union in 5 years will be run by the west. Our legitimate reason would be to finally implement the Nicolau award as agreed. So we would take all of those furloughed pilots and place them back in their proper place below our captains. While they would have improperly upgraded. They can then spend the remaining career on reserve. Then all further upgrades would go to west pilots.

You see when you move away from the law and impose majority rules. Once you are out of the majority it does not look so good anymore.

Better read the Rakestraw case again. They reordered the list as punishment because it advanced the union objective. When we have the majority we will reorder the list back to the proper Nicolau order. What did they say in that case. Even if it hurts the minority so what? Majority rules.

Then you guys can take up a collection and try and sue for DFR. Wide range of reasonableness right. It would be reasonable that the west pilots would want the Nicolau when we are the majority.

Seniority is negotiable just like crew meals. Good luck to you junior guys. The senior guys are going to get theirs and leave you hanging. AGAIN!

Unless you all want to accept the Nicolau and we can move on.

 

[ROACLT]

No No No. You all have told us that seniority is negotiable. It can be negotiated at any time as long as there is a legitimate reason. The union in 5 years will be run by the west. Our legitimate reason would be to finally implement the Nicolau award as agreed. So we would take all of those furloughed pilots and place them back in their proper place below our captains. While they would have improperly upgraded. They can then spend the remaining career on reserve. Then all further upgrades would go to west pilots.

You see when you move away from the law and impose majority rules. Once you are out of the majority it does not look so good anymore.

Better read the Rakestraw case again. They reordered the list as punishment because it advanced the union objective. When we have the majority we will reorder the list back to the proper Nicolau order. What did they say in that case. Even if it hurts the minority so what? Majority rules.

Then you guys can take up a collection and try and sue for DFR. Wide range of reasonableness right. It would be reasonable that the west pilots would want the Nicolau when we are the majority.

Seniority is negotiable just like crew meals. Good luck to you junior guys. The senior guys are going to get theirs and leave you hanging. AGAIN!

Unless you all want to accept the Nicolau and we can move on.

Sorry, taking away someone vested benefit, which the courts have always upheld seniority vests over time, is not a legitimate union objective. Not only would it violate the good faith requirement of the union but also the non-arbitrary requirement of the union. You do know a union cannot act in an arbitrary manner and are familiar with the three tenets that would constitute a failure of DFR? It's apparent your group knows nothing about unionism, labor law, union requirements but that may not be just a generation x'er thing, it could be your lawyers.

Again the Nicalou award was a proposal that was rejected, it was never a seniority list.

It's obvious you are gnashing teeth and grasping at straws now. You can spread all the FUD you wan't but the law is the law and my guess none of the East pilots are buying anything you have to sale at this point.

 

[767jetz]

You keep saying that, and you keep being wrong. The majority of working people find DOH to be the MOST fair system. It's even been called "the gold standard" of seniority integrations.

ALPA STILL SUX!

I love the way you guys try to hide behind this tag line, but it is pretty irrelevant. It's like saying a majority of Floridians think it's too cold to live in NY. Pretty useless information for a person who lives in New York. It's irrelevant.

A "majority of working people" are not pilots. A "majority of working people" have no idea about the specifics of pay, advancement, work rules, etc. of pilots. A "majority of working people" think we get paid the same 40 hour weeks they do. A "majority of working people" don't commute hundreds of miles to work. A "majority of working people" who are union members do not have the disparity of pay and schedules that pilots have from most junior to most senior. A "majority of working people" don't bid their schedules every month using PBS. A "majority of working people" don't have the same years of training and experience needed to get their jobs in the first place. A "majority of working people" do not use a skill that is quiet as job specific and non-transferable as us. A "majority of working people" do not go through what we go through to land a job at our chosen airline. A "majority of working people" would not stay in a job where they were still at the bottom after 17 years. A "majority of working people" probably have a DOH clause in their contract if they are union workers. Shall I go on???

A "majority of working people" have no idea of the specifics of our chosen profession. Maybe that's why a "majority of working people find DOH to be the MOST fair system."

Now how about those New Yorkers. I bet a majority of them think the climate in NY is just fine. Just like a majority of pilots and other working people who actually know and understand the specifics of our career do not believe that DOH is the most fair system. Not by a long shot. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago during regulation. But not anymore.

And a majority of working people who actually know that you forced yourselves into binding arbitration by failing to negotiate a fair system when you had the opportunity, agreed to honor the results, and then have spent years and millions of dollars to avoid taking responsibility for your actions, and trying to force your unique version of what you think is fair (what you think you are entitled to) on the minority of your fellow coworkers, probably do not have any respect for you what so ever. Those working people would probably call you names I can't use on this forum, and find your "gold standard" comment laughable.

And let's face it. Those working people, the ones who actually know the whole truth and not just USAPA's propaganda, are the only ones who matter if your looking for support of your "gold standard."

No my friend, you are the one who continues to be wrong. You keep regurgitating the same garbage and you continue to be part of an isolated group in a world of clearer heads. Filter out those who don't know the specifics and you guys are left standing alone in a circle, patting yourselves on the back. (or something like that. )

Lets get this moving already. What's the delay? Stop the chest beating and negotiate your DOH contract and see how it goes. Then come talk to me when it is actually in place, US has a single list and single contract with no more legal challenges. Until then it's all a bunch of hot air, and the west still has the upper hand.

 

[767jetz]

Actually the "internal" vs "binding" is a smokescreen. Internal only means that the arbitration was internal to an organization, whether that organization is a union (arbitration between members) or a company (arbitration between management and worker). That means ... oh, say the LOA93 pay arbitration, is an internal arbitration. Your logic says that the company doesn't have to abide by the LOA93 ruling if they don't like it, because it won't be binding since it's an internal arbitration.

Jim

Exactly correct. They said USAPA is at least as able to walk away from the Nic award as ALPA was. Who ever said that ALPA could walk away from a final and binding arbitration. They could not. Neither can USAPA.

Jim, your former co-workers really live in a world of denial.

 

[nic4us]

So retire under LOA93 and leave this mess to the rest of us. How selfish of you. Just because that is what is good for you. I guess on the east that is what passes for unionism.

Actually Clear, what passes on the east as unionism is a cowardly group of malcontents, who's word is no good, joining together to attempt to steal the jobs of their co-workers, and try to pass that off as within a wide range of reasonable action, or the "gold standard". Their "gold standard" is shared by the likes of the Continental and Eastern line crossers.

It really bothers them when I point this out, because even with all their well informed rationalizations, they simply cannot deny it!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Actually, it was a federal judge that called it that, not something I made up. You continue to be wrong, and spew your self-righteousness all over the place. It's YOU that look foolish.

Yes, let's do just as you say and finish the seniority integration with a great contract.

ALPA STILL SUX!

 

[cleardirect]

Actually, it was a federal judge that called it that, not something I made up. You continue to be wrong, and spew your self-righteousness all over the place. It's YOU that look foolish.

Yes, let's do just as you say and finish the seniority integration with a great contract.

ALPA STILL SUX!

ALPA is gone who cares anymore.

WWUD. Is usapa even capable of getting a contract let alone a great contract?

When is the company going to announce that they accepted usapa DOH list? I have a letter that says the company accepted the Nicolau. How about you?

 

[ROACLT]

I love the way you guys try to hide behind this tag line, but it is pretty irrelevant. It's like saying a majority of Floridians think it's too cold to live in NY. Pretty useless information for a person who lives in New York. It's irrelevant.

A "majority of working people" are not pilots. A "majority of working people" have no idea about the specifics of pay, advancement, work rules, etc. of pilots. A "majority of working people" think we get paid the same 40 hour weeks they do. A "majority of working people" don't commute hundreds of miles to work. A "majority of working people" who are union members do not have the disparity of pay and schedules that pilots have from most junior to most senior. A "majority of working people" don't bid their schedules every month using PBS. A "majority of working people" don't have the same years of training and experience needed to get their jobs in the first place. A "majority of working people" do not use a skill that is quiet as job specific and non-transferable as us. A "majority of working people" do not go through what we go through to land a job at our chosen airline. A "majority of working people" would not stay in a job where they were still at the bottom after 17 years. A "majority of working people" probably have a DOH clause in their contract if they are union workers. Shall I go on???

A "majority of working people" have no idea of the specifics of our chosen profession. Maybe that's why a "majority of working people find DOH to be the MOST fair system."

Now how about those New Yorkers. I bet a majority of them think the climate in NY is just fine. Just like a majority of pilots and other working people who actually know and understand the specifics of our career do not believe that DOH is the most fair system. Not by a long shot. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago during regulation. But not anymore.

And a majority of working people who actually know that you forced yourselves into binding arbitration by failing to negotiate a fair system when you had the opportunity, agreed to honor the results, and then have spent years and millions of dollars to avoid taking responsibility for your actions, and trying to force your unique version of what you think is fair (what you think you are entitled to) on the minority of your fellow coworkers, probably do not have any respect for you what so ever. Those working people would probably call you names I can't use on this forum, and find your "gold standard" comment laughable.

And let's face it. Those working people, the ones who actually know the whole truth and not just USAPA's propaganda, are the only ones who matter if your looking for support of your "gold standard."

No my friend, you are the one who continues to be wrong. You keep regurgitating the same garbage and you continue to be part of an isolated group in a world of clearer heads. Filter out those who don't know the specifics and you guys are left standing alone in a circle, patting yourselves on the back. (or something like that. )

Lets get this moving already. What's the delay? Stop the chest beating and negotiate your DOH contract and see how it goes. Then come talk to me when it is actually in place, US has a single list and single contract with no more legal challenges. Until then it's all a bunch of hot air, and the west still has the upper hand.

767Jets, you couldn't be further from the truth. It's pilots who are in union that lacks national unity and tries to exert the influence of the Elephants in said union over the Ants that feel as you do.

I am in a real union that has actually has national unity and its sad, myself and many of my union brothers exceed your wages. I happen to have a college education but it was not a requirement for the job, and my H.S. educated buddies and I far out earn all but maybe the top 10% of pilots schlepping it out on the docks. You want to know why? Because we respect each other, and part of that respect is the respect for union principles and seniority is one of them.

Most of my friends are not airline people and when I have discussed the US Airways situation, they are 100% behind the concept of DOH. When I explain the condition & restrictions aspect of the USAPA proposal, they uniformly say, "well that is extremely fair." So please save the diatribe of what a "majority of working people" feel. It seems to me, that the sole basis of your opinion has nothing to do with principle and only a particular demographic of the average employee of any particular airline. Older pilots favor DOH, younger favor relative seniority and by allowing those two faction to fight it out is completely anti-union. Unions have always been built on the premise that a persons longevity is an indication of not just their greater contribution to the union, but to their company and their craft. Its funny that a group of uneducated dock workers can clean the clock of professionals comprised of $150,000 Embry Riddle educated pilots or former military officers in terms of pay and work rules. Isn't it funny we respect seniority and you don't.

So, your so called friends, "regular working people" are getting a completely distorted view from you or you are fibbing. Because your majority of working people have lateral mobility and if you explained to them the lack your union has provided would understand a 17 year investment, or the people you talk to are similar minded ALPA shills.

 

[nic4us]

Let me get this staight,You say USAPA's proposl was found to be discriminatory in a federal court trial that was dismissed. Does that count? I don't see anything that validates Wake's court at all. Do you?

Well, I will admit that I have a very limited understanding of trial procedure, however, I would think that wether or not the jury verdict in the Addington trial would be admissable in a future trial would be up to that trial judge.

If I were that judge, I would allow it, and of course I would allow usapa to explain to the jury that the trial was dismissed on appeal due to lack of ripeness. Then usapa could also explain exactly what was not ripe the first time and exactly why we are all here again.

Pass anything less than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose DFR. But that is okay with busdriver, he will be gone by then.

 

[767jetz]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It hasnt been a week yet, whats it to you, ............ up at 5;30 am to watch n post on usairways board......not much of a life for you. ehh!!

Thanks for caring. Don't know why it says 5:30 to be honest. I was sound asleep this morning. However there are plenty of times I'm up late (or early) rocking my 9 week old daughter to sleep, and this forum is a good way to kill some time. It's great entertainment. Plus the sound of the computer helps lul her to sleep!

In fact I'm doing it right now. It's 1320 east coast time. Let's see what time stamp it records...

 

[767intl]

Sorry, but as far as the law is concerned, what happened in Phoenix District court never happened. Even so the jury really had no choice as to the way they ruled, as Wake tried improperly to narrow the issues so much that they could not find any other way. USAPA never got to present evidence to the fairness of its seniority list, or defend a legitimate claim in "breach of good faith", because of evidentiary rulings and jury instruction. Please reread the trial transcripts, Wake made the case only about the Nicalou award and USAPA's requirement to use it. The case had nothing to do with DOH, nor was it ever on trial or found discriminatory, only that USAPA proposed something other than Nicalou and every ruling of Wake's narrowed the whole case to that point.

That's the essence of it, ROA. Even after wasting $3M, it never happened. You got to wonder where Wake was coming from. But he didn't get overruled on the other issues. The Ninth didn't have to get to them. Maybe after they determined the case wasn't ripe, they legally couldn't get to them. I'm still amazed the Ninth gave the "No-NIC" guidance they did, but it was a shot across the bow that any future DFR based solely on a "No-NIC" contract was DOA, at least in their court. Unless overturned, what they wrote is precedence and guidance for any future court case. We can use their exact language in our defense at district court, if needed.

I think it is telling that even though the 9th circuit only commented on the jurisdictional aspect of the case and therefore did not address the other 4 issues of the appeal, they made it an issues to define the Nicalou award as nothing more than part of union process and a "seniority proposal." They also clarified that USAPA is not bound to the Nicalou award, is free to bargain without interference and defined their legal obligation as far a case being ripe with a ratified contract to bargain in "good faith", for all pilots East and West. The same obligation every union has. They didn't just pull the words "good faith" out of the ether. That is well defined legal standard as it relates to a union's responsibility. Again, that standard is that the union's behavior as it relates to a good faith requirement be within a wide range of reasonable action. Not a narrow, or a medium range but a wide range.

They must have read what Freund wrote 3 years ago, about the NIC only being a proposal, one that the company didn't have to accept.

No No No. You all have told us that seniority is negotiable. It can be negotiated at any time as long as there is a legitimate reason. The union in 5 years will be run by the west. Our legitimate reason would be to finally implement the Nicolau award as agreed. So we would take all of those furloughed pilots and place them back in their proper place below our captains. While they would have improperly upgraded. They can then spend the remaining career on reserve. Then all further upgrades would go to west pilots.

No No No. What we told you was before there is a seniority list permanently embedded in a contract, seniority is negotiable. Numerous court cases have substantiated that. But, when you run the union in 5 years, do whatever it is you got to do. You won't change what's in place. One thing you can count on is that there will be a contract in place before that 5 year takeover target. Even if we have to give you a pay cut to do it. If we all make the same pay, how can that be treating you unfairly? After all, aren't we all in this together?

You see when you move away from the law and impose majority rules. Once you are out of the majority it does not look so good anymore.

By then it'll be too late, clear.

Better read the Rakestraw case again. They reordered the list as punishment because it advanced the union objective. When we have the majority we will reorder the list back to the proper Nicolau order. What did they say in that case. Even if it hurts the minority so what? Majority rules.

Rakestraw reordered an ALPA contract. "Wake" up and smell the roses, this isn't ALPA anymore. Their seniority proposal is gone.

Then you guys can take up a collection and try and sue for DFR. Wide range of reasonableness right. It would be reasonable that the west pilots would want the Nicolau when we are the majority. Seniority is negotiable just like crew meals. Good luck to you junior guys. The senior guys are going to get theirs and leave you hanging. AGAIN! Unless you all want to accept the Nicolau and we can move on.

Believe what you want. A fair list will not stand a Rakestraw DFR reversal. But I'm sure you can find a lawyer who will take your money. No-bump, no-flush. It's in the TA. It will be immortalized in our contract. Modify that at your own peril, if we don't have a contract in 5 years. If you got to grasp at straws like you're now doing, you really have to be getting desperate.

 

[luvn737s]

Evidence, both in the form of written internal correspondence and the ongoing behavior of USAPA leadership, has proven a pattern of disenfranchising the west. The 9th has not said, "Go ahead an pursue whatever contract will pass 51%". They recognize that while there are not 2 sides legally, there are effectively 2 groups that have disparate goals until the seniority list is officially integrated. Until that happens, USAPA cannot merely satisfy the majority, it must not use its majority to harm the west pilot's interests. Once the seniority integration is complete, then USAPA can do whatever it likes. Before then, not so much.

So if USAPA feels it can ignore the interests of the west pilots prior to integration, they do so at their own peril. They can't erase the evidence of their disdain for the west pilots, so every move will be scrutinized. The moment a discriminatory TA is put out for a vote they will meet the requirement for a DFR, prior to the vote. Endorsing such a TA will be all the evidence needed to pursue it with an injunction preventing a vote likely. If USAPA presents something that does not pose a serious threat to the west by advantaging the east, then no one will likely pursue such an injunction.

If I were USAPA, I would actively court west involvement in crafting a solution, if for no other reason than to create cover and plausible deniability. Of course that would be unprecedented wisdom and rationality, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[nic4us]

And a majority of working people who actually know that you forced yourselves into binding arbitration by failing to negotiate a fair system when you had the opportunity, agreed to honor the results, and then have spent years and millions of dollars to avoid taking responsibility for your actions, and trying to force your unique version of what you think is fair (what you think you are entitled to) on the minority of your fellow coworkers, probably do not have any respect for you what so ever. Those working people would probably call you names I can't use on this forum, and find your "gold standard" comment laughable.

And let's face it. Those working people, the ones who actually know the whole truth and not just USAPA's propaganda, are the only ones who matter if your looking for support of your "gold standard."

..........................Until then it's all a bunch of hot air, and the west still has the upper hand.

And I like the way you think also!