US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Metroyet]

Here's what really has changed:

USAPA now knows for sure that the only reason this was returned to wake is because a CBA wasn't agreed to by the Company or ratified. They also know with 100% certainty that if they do ratify a DOH list, the District Court as well as the 9th, will slap them with a DFR and another Injunction. The 9th clearly, (unquestionably) spelled it out for USAPA. There is plenty of money to fight this again. 95% of the work is already done and paid for...next time a simple bench trial. Given all the stuff on record regarding this case it will move at lightning speed if the time comes. I guess it's true that USAPA is free to do whatever they want...the consequences however are now guaranteed. The only way to get a DOH list is to not be sued by the West. That is not ever going to happen when the West knows beyond a shadow of a doubt they're going to win the District and the 9th.

This assumes the Company is going to accept a DOH list which they now also know for a fact that they will be successfully sued over. I don't see that happening. This is precisely why Stripping the West of any representation was a stupid idea. Now there is no one to negotiate or settle with. No one. It's only the Nic award. Nothing has changed. In fact, my feeling is the Company is now being smoked out and something is finally going to happen. The stalemate continues just like it would have if the 9th ruled in favor of the West. Actually, in a way, they did find in favor of the West by plainly stating that the only thing stopping them was the timing. Had USAPA been able to win this on any of the other grounds they were pushing for, then they may have something. This DOH thing is still never ever going to work. You have now been told that by the 9th as well. How long can USAPA stall the NMB?

This may actually settle this matter a lot faster. We'll see.

 

[luvn737s]

The NIC is dead. Read the News.....

Is Cleary familiar with the Sword of Damocles? He should read up on it.

The Ninth has given them the freedom to do anything but exactly what they were formed to do.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Disregard

 

[Freighterguynow]

They also know with 100% certainty that if they do ratify a DOH list, the District Court as well as the 9th, will slap them with a DFR and another Injunction. The 9th clearly, (unquestionably) spelled it out for USAPA.

8008 ADDINGTON v. US AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOC.

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Here's what really has changed:

USAPA now knows for sure that the only reason this was returned to wake is because a CBA wasn't agreed to by the Company or ratified. They also know with 100% certainty that if they do ratify a DOH list, the District Court as well as the 9th, will slap them with a DFR and another Injunction. The 9th clearly, (unquestionably) spelled it out for USAPA. There is plenty of money to fight this again. 95% of the work is already done and paid for...next time a simple bench trial. Given all the stuff on record regarding this case it will move at lightning speed if the time comes. I guess it's true that USAPA is free to do whatever they want...the consequences however are now guaranteed. The only way to get a DOH list is to not be sued by the West. That is not ever going to happen when the West knows beyond a shadow of a doubt they're going to win the District and the 9th.

This assumes the Company is going to accept a DOH list which they now also know for a fact that they will be successfully sued over. I don't see that happening. This is precisely why Stripping the West of any representation was a stupid idea. Now there is no one to negotiate or settle with. No one. It's only the Nic award. Nothing has changed. In fact, my feeling is the Company is now being smoked out and something is finally going to happen. The stalemate continues just like it would have if the 9th ruled in favor of the West. Actually, in a way, they did find in favor of the West by plainly stating that the only thing stopping them was the timing. Had USAPA been able to win this on any of the other grounds they were pushing for, then they may have something. This DOH thing is still never ever going to work. You have now been told that by the 9th as well. How long can USAPA stall the NMB?

This may actually settle this matter a lot faster. We'll see.

DREAMS are FREE! What is free is USAPA can negotiate whatever it wants to , so can the company. Internal union dispute! The next merger time rolls around lets see what the next integration looks like( it won't look like the NIC!) It opens a whole new playing field , 3 seperate lists Mcaskill etc, but hey dream on and keep paying your attorneys, spin it anyway you have to! MM!

 

[Crzipilot]

good idea, West List, East List, Combined list. West list is used for bidding on their own equipment etc. East list is used for bidding on their equipment. Combined list (can we say DOH) is used for anyone that wants to go to the other side.

Hence, the West gets Exactly what they brought to the merger, same with the East. Get a combined CBA, it equals out each side and no whip sawing, moving equipment around.

Enjoy PHX, getting hot out there yet?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Congratulations to USAPA and to Seham. You’ve “won” another long-term delay in the implementation of the NIC. Of course you could have saved both sides a lot of money by simply putting out TA after TA that the east would vote down. No DFR, no district court, no circuit court, no making Seham rich. You sure have paid a lot to get what you could have achieved for virtually no expense at all (outward support of the NIC with a veiled agenda to delay its implementation until most of the east retires).

I’ve said all along that the 9th could rule either way on this, especially since it is filled with wacked out judges who hold the record for being the most overturned court in the land. So two federal judges believe this case is ripe (Wake and Bybee) and two believe it isn’t ripe (Tashima & Graber). Hardly a overwhelming victory, and it certainly doesn’t give you the freedom to implement DOH. That course of action will absolutely put you back in court where you will have a far less likelihood of a “victory” than today’s ruling.

Finally, the company will never negotiate for DOH so the stalemate will continue indefinitely. Until USAPA steps on their own arrogant and narcissistic foot, this issue is in for a very protracted battle. The next best chance for resolution is the NMB which will likely give the company the go ahead for a cram-down contract that includes the NIC. That is still years away but it is probably the next great milestone along this fruitless and expensive journey.

And so the spin cycle begins.

Had the 9th ruled the other way, we would be be inundated with "here comes the damages you loser easties" posts. But, since the 9th favored (for now at least) USAPA, all of the sudden it has no meaning and we hear "I always said it could go either way." I imagine HP_FA will be hot on your heels with that line.

And you say:
"So two federal judges believe this case is ripe (Wake and Bybee) and two believe it isn’t ripe (Tashima & Graber). Hardly a overwhelming victory, "

Yes, hardly overwhelming....like the 5 to 4 Supreme Court justices that ruled in favor of Bush in Bush vs. Gore? One vote means everything in our system, if it is the one vote which decides the case. Had it been 2 to 1 in favor of the Addington plaintiffs, we would be hearing about your total smashdown overwhelming victory over the evil forces of Seham and USAPA.

Okay. I get it. Everyone likes to save face. It's what human beings do.

But let's not hear any more about the USAPA spin machine. When you are tempted, revisit your post and look in the mirror.

 

[Freighterguynow]

good idea, West List, East List, Combined list. West list is used for bidding on their own equipment etc. East list is used for bidding on their equipment. Combined list (can we say DOH) is used for anyone that wants to go to the other side.

Hence, the West gets Exactly what they brought to the merger, same with the East. Get a combined CBA, it equals out each side and no whip sawing, moving equipment around.

I could live with that but I wonder: If the flying is 24% vs 4% would the West ratify a contract knowing PHX would be downsized 20% ?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Try actually reading the ruling. Apparently your reading comprehension is as finely tuned as your writing.

DISMISS! MM! NOT RIPE! INTERNAL UNION DISPUTE! Get a better legal team , one that understands ripeness!

 

[Crzipilot]

It's funny I see every east guy, be perfectly happy, simply keeping the airplanes and spots we brought to the merger. The west guys not so much. They want that capt seat that they are undeniably supposed to be sitting in. Uhmmm..if you want that capt seat, go back to Mesa ....

 

[oldiebutgoody]

USAPA. Best dues money I've ever spent! And I don't even get a magazine!

 

[Crzipilot]

I wonder what the difference is, in the amount of dues that we pay USAPA, compared to the "assessment" each west pilot is on the hook for, for their frivolous lawsuit????

 

[ableoneable]

From the footnotes to the decision.

USAPA’s bargaining
position leaves the Airline to decide between
a lack of a single CBA and an unlawful single CBA

3 We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA. See Diss op. at 8021-22.

So we are pretty much back where we started.

BTW; I feverently hope that USAPA does win the LOA93 arbitration. If there were a fund to contribute to I would write a check today.

 

[VAflyGal]

When will your fighting end?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Can you both now please work for a solution and stop the insanity?!

 

[USFlyer]

Can you both now please work for a solution and stop the insanity?!

I admit I rarely read these labor discussions but figured I'd pop in here today given the ruling.

But, I agree, this has gone on long enough. There has to be some equitable way, via fences and the like, to settle this where no one is happy yet no one is pissed or harmed financially.