US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[oldiebutgoody]

IF the two parties will seek an equally beneficial (or painful) resolution to this mess, it MIGHT be possible to move this group forward. BUT, if USAPA hangs on to straight DOH and West hangs on to the Nic, we will go nowhere...for good.

Time for cooler and more reasonable heads to prevail and get us pulling in the same direction.

Driver B)

You would be correct, except that USAPA HAS NEVER been for straight DOH. It's DOH with fences and restrictions, just like ALL THE OTHER labor groups at LCC have agreed to.

Shared pain is the correct path, not a lopsided, one side wins and the other loses approach like the NIC provided. There is NO WAY you cannot characterize the NIC as a windfall for the west side.

 

[CallawayGolf]

"The two airlines combined in 2005, but their pilots are still fighting over seniority rights. Six pilots from the old America West sued their union, saying it planned to ignore an arbitrator's decision that it believed had favored the America West pilots. Last year a judge agreed with the America West pilots and ordered the union to follow the arbitrator's decision.

Friday's decision from a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals says it's too soon to say that the union has harmed the America West pilots because a new contract would have to be ratified first"

Where did you get the 4th judge from?

Wake is a district judge. The rest are circuit judges. Two "federal" judges ruled the case was ripe while two ruled it isn't ripe until USAPA gets it DOH wish. Then it starts all over again.

 

[767jetz]

"By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members — both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified."

Jim

What do you make of this Jim? I haven't read the whole decision, but with that part is sounds like USAPA needs to tread lightly. I'm not sure what everyone is jumping for joy about. Doesn't sound like a slam dunk. Sounds like they got lucky and bought some time, with the endless stalemate continuing. Am I reading this wrong?

Can someone quote the part that says specifically that USAPA is free and clear to do what ever they want now, with no risk involved?

 

[USA320Pilot]

Marty Harper, an attorney for the six America West (Addington) pilots, said it was nearly certain they would ask for their appeal to be heard by the full 9th Circuit.

See Story

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

What do you make of this Jim? I haven't read the whole decision, but with that part is sounds like USAPA needs to tread lightly. I'm not sure what everyone is jumping for joy about. Doesn't sound like a slam dunk. Sounds like they got lucky and bought some time, with the endless stalemate continuing. Am I reading this wrong?

Can someone quote the part that says specifically that USAPA is free and clear to do what ever they want now, with no risk involved?

To add to that, doesn't this provide considerable leverage to the company?

While the ruling frees USAPA to negotiate DOH/fences restrictions, the company via the TA has already accepted the Nic list, and stated as much. The comapny is aware how badly USAPA wants DOH, why would they agree to come off the accepted NIC list without making USAPA pay dearly for it via concessions of some sort, thats if they are willing to come off it at all.

What is the plan to force the company off the NIC list?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

What do you make of this Jim? I haven't read the whole decision, but with that part is sounds like USAPA needs to tread lightly. I'm not sure what everyone is jumping for joy about. Doesn't sound like a slam dunk. Sounds like they got lucky and bought some time, with the endless stalemate continuing. Am I reading this wrong?

Can someone quote the part that says specifically that USAPA is free and clear to do what ever they want now, with no risk involved?

Everything has risk ask FREUND, but as far as negotiations you might check the latest PRESIDENTS MESSAGE , Cleary was supremely clear! MM!

 

[machflyer]

Take a look at the 9th's web-site. Seems that Wake and Bybee are cronies of Bush while Tashima and Gerber are Dems.
Validates Decision '08, eh?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Marty Harper, an attorney for the six America West (Addington) pilots, said it was nearly certain they would ask for their appeal to be heard by the full 9th Circuit.

See Story

Regards,

USA320Pilot

I guess that since the "big paycheck" from the damages suit ain't comin', they need to squeeze their clients for another losing cause.

The ALPA shills are starting to sound a little worried that the ALPA "non-merger" policy is about to get creamed.

 

[luvthe9]

Marty Harper, an attorney for the six America West (Addington) pilots, said it was nearly certain they would ask for their appeal to be heard by the full 9th Circuit.

See Story

Regards,

USA320Pilot

What do your "sources" say now!!!!!!!!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

What do you make of this Jim? I haven't read the whole decision, but with that part is sounds like USAPA needs to tread lightly. I'm not sure what everyone is jumping for joy about. Doesn't sound like a slam dunk. Sounds like they got lucky and bought some time, with the endless stalemate continuing. Am I reading this wrong?

Can someone quote the part that says specifically that USAPA is free and clear to do what ever they want now, with no risk involved?

Nobody said anything about "no risk", but read footnote 3 of the decision. The part about USAPA being at least as free to abandon the NIC as ALPA. Then remember that ALPA tried to use the Wye river meeting to negotiate another solution, and that the west's own lawyer characterized the NIC as "only a bargaining position". ALPA clearly didn't consider the NIC a "done deal".

 

[USA320Pilot]

If AOL and the Addington group files an appeal with the Full 9th Circuit I believe regardless of the next legal decision this case is headed to the Supreme Court. US Airways' pilots are going to be bogged down in months-and-months and maybe years of litigation with both parties digging their heals in and the pilots will fly under LOA 93/C2004 for a long-time.

Meanwhile, other US Airways labor groups have their post merger contracts amendable, they will get their second pay raises, and the industry keeps moving ahead of US Airways' pilots in contract improvements.

There is no victory here...only losers.

Meanwhile, after reading the Ninth's Award it is all up to USAPA because they have to negotiate in good faith for both sides. The court states, "USAPA's final proposal may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members - both East and West - in mind, under the pain of unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified."

Another words, If USAPA negotiates a seniority agreement that intentionally harms the West pilots from the Nicolau Award, and it is ratified by the East pilots, the claim or case is now "ripe".

It appears to me today's ruling is clearly not a victory for USAPA and places the union in a no-win position. Another words right now there will be no Nicolau Award, but there will be no new contract without the Nicolau Award either. Thus, what will the union do so the DFR lawsuit is not "unquestionably ripe" while AOL and Addington appeals? And, all the court did was "defer judicial intervention for USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR without harming the West pilots."

Maybe, maybe USAPA and its supporters now find them self in an even worse position.

At US Airways for the pilots, whether its the Hardliners vs. Pragmatics, East vs. West, or North vs. South - how come all the pilots do is fight with one another? Nothing seems to ever get accomplished to help the pilots. According to Bill Swelbar USAPA has been a "consistent objection to every strategic initiative generated by US Airways management," which is why he he challenged speculation that United and US Airways could put together a merger. Why are US Airways' pilots so dysfunctional and the laughing stock of the industry and the AFL-CIO? Its not suprising to me that the Delta and United MEC's wanted nothing to do with US Airways' Hardline union leaders, whether it was ALPA or USAPA. Who can blame them?

Are you sick of it yet? I know I am.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[oldiebutgoody]

If AOL and the Addington group files an appeal with the Full 9th Circuit I believe regardless of the next legal decision this case is headed to the Supreme Court. US Airways' pilots are going to be bogged down in months-and-months and maybe years of litigation with both parties digging their heals in and the pilots will fly under LOA 93/C2004 for a long-time....


...Are you sick of it yet? I know I am.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

No, you're wrong. This is CLEARLY a victory for USAPA and labor unions nationwide.

A new contract can be negotiated, ratified and implemented. Then, if there is a group which feels wronged, they may try another law suit. In the meantime, we get a new contract, new wages and working conditions. Hopefully the new contract will include pay and benefits commensurate with the amount of investment in the company one has made in terms of service to the company, and others are protected by fences and restrictions of appropriate length.

Am I sick of it you asked. Certainly, but I would have been even more sick watching folks hired in 2004 and 2005 take the jobs of folks that had been on the property and never furloughed that had been here since 1988-1989.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What do you make of this Jim? I haven't read the whole decision, but with that part is sounds like USAPA needs to tread lightly.

That is my layman's interpretation also. While the Nic wasn't on trial in the District Court, the use or rejection of Nic was - that's what got the guilty verdict against USAPA. So it would appear that any menaingful tampering with the Nic award could very well end up with the same verdict against USAPA.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Sure seems nice and civil here for a change.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Here is another point to consider...the 9th District Court ruling was NOT unanimous.

In Judge Bybee’s dissenting opinion he said, “USAPA has misled the majority about its power to improve their seniority prospects at the expense of the West Pilots. The will of the East Pilots springs from a mistaken understanding of the law and mismanaged expectations. If this is an impasse, it is one USAPA has goaded on. (Emphasis added).”

According to a colleague of mine, "Today's 9th Circuit ruling might be considered more of a win than a loss by those who might otherwise have to cut a big damages check to the West pilots. At least it means that the membership won’t be levied with an assessment THIS SUMMER for DFR related damages. However it doesn’t mean that an assessment won’t be levied against the membership to cover the cost of the attorney fees associated with defending USAPA against its own brazen stupidity. In the end, this is an opinion from the court that likely does nothing more than delay the inevitable DFR which as the court in both the majority and dissenting opinion, will be ripe at some future date if USAPA continues to pursue an 'unquestionably ripe DFR' negotiating strategy regarding seniority."

I agree with Jim when he said, "While the Nic wasn't on trial in the District Court, the use or rejection of Nic was - that's what got the guilty verdict against USAPA. So it would appear that any menaingful tampering with the Nic award could very well end up with the same verdict against USAPA."

Regards,

USA320Pilot