US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Barrister]

Jim.
Let's be honest. You have a considerable, personal dog in this fight. I will grant you, your dog has quite the pedigree..

HS

Please explain....I thought it was just severe Stockholm Syndrome??????????

NPJB

 

[Mr Furlough]

Yes and we take full responsibility for our actions, try it some time, people might take you seriously once you do.

As to the seniority, you do not have to give us yours, we are not asking for it, we do not need it, we have our own, it was combined with yours to come up with the Nic. You have spent the last three years stealing West seniority and jobs, and I think it bothers you when I point it out.

We do not negotiate with untrustworthy, reneging, backstabbing, parties who's word is no good in person or on paper, and that is YOUR fault.

Nice! First off, nic was never ever a done deal. So how does one become any of the lousy things you are asserting? Nothing was ever taken from you because this process has firewalls. Nic didn't pass through them. Never will.

I assume that most on this thread have given this company everything it needs to be successful. If you are one of those realize that this is a very complicated matter. Both sides are entitled and deserve due process. This particular process has run it's course. No one is the bad guy. We collectively relied on a process that failed all of us. What we all need now is a solution that is palatable for all of us. Nic will not be apart of that solution.

Over the past two years do you realize that many of you here have been arguing a position that is unattainable? One guy here suggested that DOH has never been used!?!? Whatever, but more so I would advance that this kind of uncreative, stubborn, and unprofessional tug of war won't yield anything positive for anyone.

From what you have said, it would seem like a solid fence would suit you fine. Is that right?

 

[Crzipilot]

Wow. Now it is ALPA's fault that a pilot did not reach top of scale yet. Do they also cause global warming and the oil spill?

If you knew of what you spoke, you wouldn't sound as misinformed as you are. Yes....ALPA is to blame for the situation some of the junior pilots are in. Hopefully rectified soon....

 

[traderjake]

Secondly, this was a clear definition going forward with regard to what a judge can, and more importantly, cannot do.

They cannot meddle in internal union issues.

Is beating your wife an internal family issue that a judge can't meddle with?

You really should stop making stuff up.

Trying to renege on a legally binding arbitration is not an internal union issue.

 

[Crzipilot]

Is beating your wife an internal family issue that a judge can't meddle with?

You really should stop making stuff up.

I wouldn't say he is making the stuff up. The issues are internal to the union, until something is agreed upon and signed. Until then it's an internal thing. And as the courts stated, they don't have the crystal ball to see what the final outcome is. Once a final outcome is determined, THEN the courts can get involved. The way it should be..... Some call it posturing in other situations....

 

[traderjake]

What Parker did was accept 'a list' that met the company's criteria. He accepted 'a list' that was a result of the previous CBA's process. He accepted 'a list' that was proposed (that's right, a proposal) to be the list under ALPA. The list Parker accepted was the proposed list from the prior CBA that was sitting on his shelf waiting to be implemented. Problem was, he couldn't quite impliment that proposed list as it was not yet part of a ratified contract.

Wrong. The Nic award is, by contract, the seniority list until a different one is negotiated and ratified.

The courts probably are not going to let a different list stand.

 

[traderjake]

The issues are internal to the union, until something is agreed upon and signed. Until then it's an internal thing. And as the courts stated, they don't have the crystal ball to see what the final outcome is. Once a final outcome is determined, THEN the courts can get involved. The way it should be..... Some call it posturing in other situations....

So you agree that the court said the case was not ripe, they did not say the West pilots would not have a case in the future.

 

[GuntherA320]

Well, you must be tossing darts for that assumption. The fact is that nothing was resolved on Friday other than two out of three decided they didn't want to deviate from the general ripeness rule. Fine. The en banc option appears viable but regardless, we'll be doing it again in a year or two - or three - or four. The reality for all pilots is the sands of time.

And by the time that rolls around the attrition will be captured. No matter what happens by then, you will have still lost. You just don't get it. Do i need to thank Aquagreen, AOL, or Judge Wake for that?

 

[traderjake]

And by the time that rolls around the attrition will be captured. No matter what happens by then, you will have still lost. You just don't get it. Do i need to thank Aquagreen, AOL, or Judge Wake for that?

I thank USAPA for 5 years of making $85 hour under the worst contract in the industry.

 

[GuntherA320]

I thank USAPA for 5 years of making $85 hour under the worst contract in the industry.

Trader,

I believe you can thank ALPA for making $85 an hour under the worst contract in the industry. USAPA has been around for 2 years. Hard to blame them for $85 for 5 years. Airtran has been hiring for quite a while. You could have joined your ALPA buddy Tim Baker over there. Don't blame USAPA for your bad decisions.

 

[Beancounter]

Nice! First off, nic was never ever a done deal. So how does one become any of the lousy things you are asserting? Nothing was ever taken from you because this process has firewalls. Nic didn't pass through them. Never will.

I assume that most on this thread have given this company everything it needs to be successful. If you are one of those realize that this is a very complicated matter. Both sides are entitled and deserve due process. This particular process has run it's course. No one is the bad guy. We collectively relied on a process that failed all of us. What we all need now is a solution that is palatable for all of us. Nic will not be apart of that solution.

Over the past two years do you realize that many of you here have been arguing a position that is unattainable? One guy here suggested that DOH has never been used!?!? Whatever, but more so I would advance that this kind of uncreative, stubborn, and unprofessional tug of war won't yield anything positive for anyone.

From what you have said, it would seem like a solid fence would suit you fine. Is that right?

My last flight was about a year and a half prior to when I would have been furloughed. I am on the outside looking in. I believe the West was open to fences prior to abitration. It wasn't just the DOH that was a sticking point. It was the fact that the East negotiators wanted DOH including the furloughs with no fences. While DOH has been used widely in the past I don't remember it ever including furloughs, although I could be wrong. If I had to guess I'd say the time for negotiating is past. The West will continue to miss out on growth while the East lives under the worst contract in the industry. I hope I am wrong and that both sides eventually work things out for the best.

 

[Elevation]

LOL!!! Oh really? YGTBSM. So why didn't Parker tell this to the West before they waisted everyones time and money on litigation? After all, he accepted 'the list' well before this whole charade began. Why didn't he just tell everyone......East, West, USAPA, Wake, the jury, the 9th......the World......"Hey everyone, I've accepted 'the list'.... SO IT SHALL BE!

What Parker did was accept 'a list' that met the company's criteria. He accepted 'a list' that was a result of the previous CBA's process. He accepted 'a list' that was proposed (that's right, a proposal) to be the list under ALPA. The list Parker accepted was the proposed list from the prior CBA that was sitting on his shelf waiting to be implemented. Problem was, he couldn't quite impliment that proposed list as it was not yet part of a ratified contract.

USAPA changes all of that! And, the 9th has effectively affirmed that USAPA, as the current CBA, has the right to come up with another 'proposal'......a fair proposal that will be implemented when it is ratified by the majority of the MIGS. If some deem it unfair at that point......go ahead, find another court, another judge, and write another check to challenge it.

Damn, if Parker would have just spoken up sooner and let everyone know the power he wielded over the NIC we could have saved millions and you would have your blessed NIC! LOL!!!

You forgot the important part about Parker approving of this "proposal" which intern draws the company into the fray both legally and possibly monetarily. Parker won't do that. The part about Parker telling everyone he accept the list and "so it shall be" why would he want to end the arguing? he's saving minimum 120 mil a year so far. It's all about dollars to him, and honestly it has saved the company by paying these low wages for longer than he ever imagined.

The questions I want to know the answers to is, when is USAPA going to present the list to Parker? and what will his reaction be? When will section 22 be TA'd? I will be waiting to see.

 

[cleardirect]

I would posit that a contract that was ratified my the majority of the union membership would be considered fair in the eyes of any third party overseer.
Otherwise, it would fail and would not be ratified.
Cheers.

You would be wrong. The DFR test is not, does the majority like it. Would you allow that to be the standard for merger policy? Two airlines merge and they vote on the list? Good luck with that if we merger with DAL. Where do you think you would end up?

 

[cleardirect]

If USAPA prevails on the LOA 93 pay grievance, Parker will be chomping at the bit to do something quick. He will be far from absent.

And another though occurred to me: There is a maybe 90 day window of opportunity for Parker to hedge his bets on that arbitration. I think it's a toss up as to how it will pay out. But he can make it ALL go away if he gets his negotiators to the table and hammers out a new contract before the arbitrator rules. The window is closing fast, and now that there is a federal mediator, I'm not sure it can even be done if the sessions have to take place in her presence.

Where is the answer to LOA 93? It was done in Feb. it has been 4 months what is taking so long. That is an expedited slam dunk right? The arbitrator should have seen the logic of your case and finished quickly. What is the hold up?

What makes you think that Parker believes he is going to lose LOA 93? You did see the 10 page letter from the company about why usapa is going to lose right. That was not just some shot across the bow hope it rattles the pilots thing that is what they know is going to happen.

Parker has zero concern about LOA 93 so he has zero interest in getting a quick contract with usapa. It is usapa that should be concerned about getting it done before the embarrassing loss of LOA93.

But go ahead and pass that DOH list over this week and let’s see what the company does.

 

[Black Swan]

Is beating your wife an internal family issue that a judge can't meddle with?

You really should stop making stuff up.

Trying to renege on a legally binding arbitration is not an internal union issue.

You really need to familiarize yourself with civil law, and then the separate issue of labor relations. There is a completely different framework for each. Workings within a labor union or organization- covered completely differently. Yes, beating your wife is against the law, defined by a specific tenet of CIVIL law. Dealings within a labor organization, such as elections,bargaining, organization etc. as long as they are not in violation of civil law such as intimidation, threats, etc. are not covered by state or federal statute. The RLA has specific procedure for this.I have a suggestion. Why don't you get the Nat'l Academy of Arbitrators handbook and read some of it. It might help.