US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

So you agree that the court said the case was not ripe, they did not say the West pilots would not have a case in the future.

They said you MIGHT have a case. They were not willing to speculate on that at the present time. Because they correctly stated NOBODY knows yet if you will really be harmed.Your idea of harm might not be what the rest of the world thinks.

 

[Black Swan]

It is very interesting to see the West carry forward the expectation of damage that was fomented in Wakes' courtroom. You better get out of that mindset, because he did you a gross disservice through his ignorance of the RLA. He almost imposed the Nic. Had he not been admonished by someone who knew the RLA, I believe he would have.Believe me, it would have been the most embarrassing moment in his legal tenure. THe NMB would have PARACHUTED into his courtroom. This judge led you and your advisors down a mine strewn path. Read the 9th. It clearly states you might not be damaged going forward. They are not basing this on the Nic. It isn't even a consideration with them. Just one more way of THOUSANDS this might be resolved. You better let go the damage notion. You are tying it to what Wake said, and the Nic. Both non factors now. You spent a lot of money on what Wake led you to believe. He was prepping court for a damages trial before the damage even occurred, if it ever would. This speaks volumes about your attorneys and Wake himself. All any good attorney would have to have said was the car wreck scenario. How could anyone even begin to go to court and say they were suing for damage from a traffic accident BEFORE the accident and subsequent damage took place? You can't it is that simple. You weren't even close to being damaged. Wake was way, way out of his jurisdiction.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Parker could open a West base in PHL furlough top of scale East pilots (East is over the min block hour), recall 2-3 year pay scale West pilots and save money.

Jim

Only if you fly the airplane empty - the Flight Attendants have a TA too.

No new crew bases in each others domiciles
No TDY either
All known flying as of Sept 22, 2005 to remain with the respective employees

 

[Crzipilot]

So you agree that the court said the case was not ripe, they did not say the West pilots would not have a case in the future.

Again, read the decision. The courts of course are not going to say that the west does not have a case going forward. They specifically state, that going forward anyone may have a case, but the contract must be voted in first, before anyone can determine if any harm has actually been done.

Check out discussion points 5 and 8. AND footnote 3. That pretty much addresses the NIC award, in the sense that, they did not determine if it's fair or not.....BUT just because it's not negotiated into the final CBA, does that itself lend itself to a DFR claim.

It's pretty black and white there....

"Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete injury. Additionally, USAPA's final proposal may yet be one that does NOT work the disadvantages Paintiffs fear, EVEN IF THAT PROPOSAL IS NOT THE NICOLAU AWARD"

What does the above sentence mean to you???

"We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. WE NOTE, AS THE DISTRICT COURT RECOGNIZED, THAT USAPA IS AT LEAST AS FREE TO ABANDON THE NICOLAU AWARD AS WAS IT'S PREDECESSOR, ALAP. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the INTERNAL RULES AND PROCESSES OF ALPA, is binding on USAPA"

 

[Crzipilot]

Where is the answer to LOA 93? It was done in Feb. it has been 4 months what is taking so long. That is an expedited slam dunk right? The arbitrator should have seen the logic of your case and finished quickly. What is the hold up?

See, staying informed helps you answer your own questions. See during the arbitration hearings in FL, the company produced a "expert" witness which they failed to inform USAPA of. In doing so, the arbirtrator gave USAPA a time frame to dispose this "expert" witness and submit a written rebuttal, brief to the arbitrator. I believe this was finally accomplished last month or the month before and everything was submitted to him, hence expecting a decision in the August/September time frame......

At least I believe that's what the deal was with the expert witness, might be wrong on what USAPA was allowed or requested to do, but it had to do with this new person introduced by the company...

 

[kubotapilot]

Sorry Cleared,

This sounds strangely similar to many of the west posts regarding the much delayed 9th Circuit ruling. It may take until this fall, but I believe there are better than even odds that the LOA 93 grievance results will be a very positive for ALL Us airways pilots!

It's funny that you give so much credence to the company's letter regarding LOA 93. Can I assume you also believe everything you are told and take it at face value? Yeah, you are the man I wan't to sit across the table from during my business contract negotiations

Cheers!

Where is the answer to LOA 93? It was done in Feb. it has been 4 months what is taking so long. That is an expedited slam dunk right? The arbitrator should have seen the logic of your case and finished quickly. What is the hold up?

What makes you think that Parker believes he is going to lose LOA 93? You did see the 10 page letter from the company about why usapa is going to lose right. That was not just some shot across the bow hope it rattles the pilots thing that is what they know is going to happen.

Parker has zero concern about LOA 93 so he has zero interest in getting a quick contract with usapa. It is usapa that should be concerned about getting it done before the embarrassing loss of LOA93.

But go ahead and pass that DOH list over this week and let’s see what the company does.

 

[Crzipilot]

For those that are claiming a CBA without the NIC is the starting point of DFR.....

What does this mean to you???

Indeed, the Supreme Court case that clarified that the DFR
was applicable during contract negotiations articulated its
holding in terms that imply a claim can be brought only after
negotiations are complete and a “final product” has been
reached. See Air Line Pilots Ass’n, Int’l v. O’Neill, 499 U.S.
65, 78 (1991) (“[T]he final product of the bargaining process
may constitute evidence of a breach of duty only if it can be
fairly characterized as so far outside a ‘wide range of reasonableness,’
that it is wholly ‘irrational’ or ‘arbitrary.’ ” (quoting
Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, 345 U.S. 330, 338 (1953))).

Page 13 of 26 of the decision....

Kinda implies that, once a CBA is voted in, as long as what is contained within it, Including Section 22, is within a wide range of reasonableness (not the narrow band width of West pilots Ideas) that is wholly not irrational or arbitrary, the union will be determined to have upheld it's DFR.

 

[Crzipilot]

Parker has zero concern about LOA 93 so he has zero interest in getting a quick contract with usapa. It is usapa that should be concerned about getting it done before the embarrassing loss of LOA93.

Once again you proved yourself wrong. I believe parker showed his hand with the ual foray. When he spoke up about that pesky COC section in our contract, which obviously was impeding his chance of another merger. I think he definitely wants this resolved so he can get on with the frat party....

 

[vsi0]

Why does the west want the east to lose LOA 93 or the MDA case? Being paid 40% below industry is not good for anyone, yet the west seems to hold those pay rates very dear.

I do realize that the opinions posted here are probably only a small percentage of what the line thinks--but even on the hand full of (Parker/Kirby/Isom) group hugs I manage to watch, the west seems to get silly over any monies paid to the east.

 

[Groucho]

For those that are claiming a CBA without the NIC is the starting point of DFR.....

What does this mean to you???

Indeed, the Supreme Court case that clarified that the DFR
was applicable during contract negotiations articulated its
holding in terms that imply a claim can be brought only after
negotiations are complete and a “final product” has been
reached. See Air Line Pilots Ass’n, Int’l v. O’Neill, 499 U.S.
65, 78 (1991) (“[T]he final product of the bargaining process
may constitute evidence of a breach of duty only if it can be
fairly characterized as so far outside a ‘wide range of reasonableness,’
that it is wholly ‘irrational’ or ‘arbitrary.’ ” (quoting
Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, 345 U.S. 330, 338 (1953))).

Page 13 of 26 of the decision....

Kinda implies that, once a CBA is voted in, as long as what is contained within it, Including Section 22, is within a wide range of reasonableness (not the narrow band width of West pilots Ideas) that is wholly not irrational or arbitrary, the union will be determined to have upheld it's DFR.

You are absolutely correct!!! Google the case and you will find Marty Harper's name on the list of attorneys at the start of the SCOUS decision. Now with this ruling he has been spanked twice over the same issue, ripeness.

You would think he would have figured it out by now.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You are absolutely correct!!! Google the case and you will find Marty Harper's name on the list of attorneys at the start of the SCOUS decision. Now with this ruling he has been spanked twice over the same issue, ripeness.

You would think he would have figured it out by now.

Spanked? He made 1.8 mil for this one. More for the last one.

Gettin' spanked all the way to the bank....

Oh, wait. I forgot that he was padding his bill. He likes the west guys so much he doesn't mind going to jail for 'em.

 

[luvthe9]

I thank USAPA for 5 years of making $85 hour under the worst contract in the industry.

That was ALPA that brought you those rates "TraitorJake"

 

[oldiebutgoody]

That was ALPA that brought you those rates "TraitorJake"

Not to mention the NIC, which caused the negotiation standstill.

 

[Black Swan]

Lets' hope the West goes forward in their appeal with the 9th. Nothing would make me happier. Their lack of understanding of what constitutes damage and especially ripeness is the best way to drain whatever cash they have left. The lawyers don't look too smart, but it sure pays fine.

 

[luvthe9]

Heard a west guy (belive it was an F/O) got his clocked cleaned in a fight in the Sim building (east) after mouthing off to an east guy for a while, supposedly security and the cops were called, anyone else hear of this incident?