US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Phoenix]

... Section 22 is done and accepted by the company. ..

The company lawyers already know or will soon become intimately familiar with the implications of the term "internal" arbitration vs. "binding arbitration".

You should not think that "internal" in anyway diminishes the authority of the union that instituted the process of arbitration. To the contrary, the use of the term "internal" actually accentuates the authority that the union possessed, by acknowledging that it (ALPA) was indeed the union that ruled alone over that process, in so long as they did.

It should be readily apparent that the 9th has affirmed USAPA is now engaged in an internal union process.

 

[AWE Dog]

You really should educate yourself on the facts before spouting YOUR crap. UAL used ALPA merger policy every time. News Flash: it no longer contains DOH. Hasn't for MANY years. It also doesn't prohibit DOH if both groups agree that is the fairest method. Funny thing is, you are the only group that has a problem with it.

Every merger turns on it's own merits. Pan Am brought to UA 747's and the Pacific that is now the envy of everyone else. That really was fair then. What is it that US brought to the table? A bunch of narrow body airplanes, a regional domestic route structure, competition from SW and Jet Blue in almost every market, baggage from 2 bankruptcies, countless mergers, and years of mismanagement. Oh yeah, and a handful of A330s really old 767's. What USAPA has been trying to foist upon the West is not fair.

Get it? Different set of circumstances - different measure of what's really fair.

So let's see... keeping what you have by fencing off your domiciles and keeping any growth for yourselves is fair now. But fencing you off the 747 and 777 forever, which was proposed to you in the UA/US merger attempt in 2000 wasn't fair then? Hmmmm. Talk about spouting crap. (your words not mine) You guys keep the double standards flowing. You're good at that. :blink:

OK, What year did ALPA merger policy change and why? So Pan Am had good routes so DOH was fair then, how kind of you. Those 747's were almost as old as U's 767's. If the East has nothing to offer, tell me what the great west has. ALPA still SUX

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You really should educate yourself on the facts before spouting YOUR crap. UAL used ALPA merger policy every time. News Flash: it no longer contains DOH. Hasn't for MANY years. It also doesn't prohibit DOH if both groups agree that is the fairest method. Funny thing is, you are the only group that has a problem with it.

Every merger turns on it's own merits. Pan Am brought to UA 747's and the Pacific that is now the envy of everyone else. That really was fair then. What is it that US brought to the table? A bunch of narrow body airplanes, a regional domestic route structure, competition from SW and Jet Blue in almost every market, baggage from 2 bankruptcies, countless mergers, and years of mismanagement. Oh yeah, and a handful of A330s really old 767's. What USAPA has been trying to foist upon the West is not fair.

Get it? Different set of circumstances - different measure of what's really fair.

So let's see... keeping what you have by fencing off your domiciles and keeping any growth for yourselves is fair now. But fencing you off the 747 and 777 forever, which was proposed to you in the UA/US merger attempt in 2000 wasn't fair then? Hmmmm. Talk about spouting crap. (your words not mine) You guys keep the double standards flowing. You're good at that. :blink:

Yea. ALPA changes its merger policy so that the larger group gets to screw the smaller group every time. If they DID use DOH, it's only because it gave an advantage to United. That plan worked every time unti Nicolau screwed it up for you.

We know how it works. You don't need to keep trying the ALPA spin on us.

 

[OTTER574]

Accepted.

Years ago a favorite aunt gave me a birthday card in it with a check for more money than I knew she could really afford. (She spoiled me rotten as a kid, God rest her soul.)

I accepted the card and the check. I never cashed the check, though.

Accepted.

What color is the sky today?...I say blue but you say shades of lite blue, grey and white. To sort it out we hire a neutral 3rd party arbitrator to confirm the answer/list and we agree to final and binding to what his/her outcome/answer/list will be.

Anything sound similar?

Read the TA. Joint contract means NIC. The company and usapa must follow the ALPA negotiated TA to the letter. Enjoy loa 93 for a long time because that's the corner you easties have painted yourselves in.

 

[nic4us]

The company lawyers already know or will soon become intimately familiar with the implications of the term "internal" arbitration vs. "binding arbitration".

You should not think that "internal" in anyway diminishes the authority of the union that instituted the process of arbitration. To the contrary, the use of the term "internal" actually accentuates the authority that the union possessed, by acknowledging that it (ALPA) was indeed the union that ruled alone over that process, in so long as they did.

Just checked in to see if we passed the 100 page mark, bravo everybody, well done!

Now to this internal vs. binding arguement.

Phoenix, first just go look up the word ARBITRATION. Then go and put your adjective in front of it. We engaged in a process of ARBITRATION. Internal union arbitration? yes, binding arbitration? yes. All parties who entered into the ARBITATION did so knowing the result arrived from the process was binding on all parties. (Then you weasels tried to lie your way out of that in Wake's courtroom, under oath no less, but I digress))

It was indeed an internal union dispute, and that dispute had a resolution process. That process was binding arbitration.

Sorry, you are stuck with the Nic, it ain't going away. Pass anything else, and you will learn that an INTERNAL ARBITRATION, is just as final as BINDING ARBITATION.

You are free to persue anything that is not "wholey irrational are arbitrary", and then you are free to be found guilty of DFR if it harms the West in any way. i.e. differs from what the West has in the INTERNAL BINDING ARBITRATION results.

 

[Phoenix]

Just checked in to see if we passed the 100 page mark, bravo everybody, well done!

Now to this internal vs. binding arguement.

Phoenix, first just go look up the word ARBITRATION. Then go and put your adjective in front of it. We engaged in a process of ARBITRATION. Internal union arbitration? yes, binding arbitration? yes. All parties who entered into the ARBITATION did so knowing the result arrived from the process was binding on all parties. (Then you weasels tried to lie your way out of that in Wake's courtroom, under oath no less, but I digress))

It was indeed an internal union dispute, and that dispute had a resolution process. That process was binding arbitration.

Sorry, you are stuck with the Nic, it ain't going away. Pass anything else, and you will learn that an INTERNAL ARBITRATION, is just as final as BINDING ARBITATION.

You are free to persue anything that is not "wholey irrational are arbitrary", and then you are free to be found guilty of DFR if it harms the West in any way. i.e. differs from what the West has in the INTERNAL BINDING ARBITRATION results.

You are arguing that "internal" and "binding" are equally applicable. Obviously all three judges on the 9th disagree with you.

 

[AWE Dog]

Just checked in to see if we passed the 100 page mark, bravo everybody, well done!

Now to this internal vs. binding arguement.

Phoenix, first just go look up the word ARBITRATION. Then go and put your adjective in front of it. We engaged in a process of ARBITRATION. Internal union arbitration? yes, binding arbitration? yes. All parties who entered into the ARBITATION did so knowing the result arrived from the process was binding on all parties. (Then you weasels tried to lie your way out of that in Wake's courtroom, under oath no less, but I digress))

It was indeed an internal union dispute, and that dispute had a resolution process. That process was binding arbitration.

Sorry, you are stuck with the Nic, it ain't going away. Pass anything else, and you will learn that an INTERNAL ARBITRATION, is just as final as BINDING ARBITATION.

You are free to persue anything that is not "wholey irrational are arbitrary", and then you are free to be found guilty of DFR if it harms the West in any way. i.e. differs from what the West has in the INTERNAL BINDING ARBITRATION results.

If this is the case why didn't the 9th say,it isn't ripe but we will leave the injunction in place because it has to be the NIC?

 

[767jetz]

OK, What year did ALPA merger policy change and why? So Pan Am had good routes so DOH was fair then, how kind of you. Those 747's were almost as old as U's 767's. If the East has nothing to offer, tell me what the great west has. ALPA still SUX

Wow! You really are dense. Let's spell it out for you.

Lots of big airplanes and and a route system that took United from a small domestic airline to an international powerhouse (at the time) = good.

Same old narrowbodies, a few old 767's, and BK #2 = bad.

I never said East had nothing to offer West. But you were the one who brought up the Pan Am comparison. I was just answering your question.

 

[767jetz]

ALPA changes its merger policy so that the larger group gets to screw the smaller group every time.

Come on Oldie. Everyone knows that's just the way you like it!

 

[AWE Dog]

Wow! You really are dense. Let's spell it out for you.

Lots of big airplanes and and a route system that took United from a small domestic airline to an international powerhouse (at the time) = good.

Same old narrowbodies, a few old 767's, and BK #2 = bad.

I never said East had nothing to offer West. But you were the one who brought up the Pan Am comparison. I was just answering your question.

Lot's humm, how many? I just hapenned to work for Pan Am. If DOH is fair then ,it's fair now. The rest is crap.

 

[nic4us]

You are arguing that "internal" and "binding" are equally applicable. Obviously all three judges on the 9th disagree with you.

No I am arguing that we reached the Nic through arbitration. Internal, binding does not matter.

The 9th specifically stated that they " do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau award is binding on usapa".

What makes that question "thorny"? it is complicated and difficult to solve, and like a cactus difficult to grasp unless you are wearing gloves. Well the west is wearing gloves. The gloves are made up of over a 150 year history of labor arbitrations in this country, that says once the arbitrator rules, that is the end of it. Well Nic ruled, get used to his decision, it ain't going away.

Now you are trying to say that the 9th, although they specifically said they are not ruling on wether it is binding, is actually ruling that it is not "binding", but simply "internal", well ALPA could do nothing about it and neither can usapa.

Nic is here to stay. Pass anything less, get sued, lose DFR. Simple equation really.

Read the usapa update yet? I have not, because it is the lengthiest bag of wind to come from the fake union since its misconception. I did however read the cliff notes, seems usapa is calling on everyone to come together and save us all a bunch of money by not suing them in the future. Sorry, usapa anything less than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose DFR, end of story.

Also, I heard they suggest putting a West pilot or panel on the team to draft new conditions and restrictions. Okay, I will go along with that waste of time and volunteer for the position and tell you right now what the West's conditions and restrictions are when we a dealing with a group with a history of reneging on agreements.

Our conditions are the Nicolau award, unaltered, unmodified and in its terms, with all the rights associated with it. Anything less get sued, waste money, lose DFR, end of story.

No offense it is just an "internal" union matter now.

 

[767jetz]

Lot's humm, how many? I just hapenned to work for Pan Am. If DOH is fair then ,it's fair now. The rest is crap.

Your opinion only. Everyone's entitled to one. Too bad not many people agree with yours. :blink:

 

[767jetz]

Now you are trying to say that the 9th, although they specifically said they are not ruling on wether it is binding, is actually ruling that it is not "binding", but simply "internal", well ALPA could do nothing about it and neither can usapa.

Nic is here to stay. Pass anything less, get sued, lose DFR. Simple equation really.

Sorry, usapa anything less than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose DFR, end of story.

Our conditions are the Nicolau award, unaltered, unmodified and in its terms, with all the rights associated with it. Anything less get sued, waste money, lose DFR, end of story.

No offense it is just an "internal" union matter now.

I like the way you think.

I wish USAPA would move forward already with all the bravado we are hearing on this forum. That way we can put all their half baked theories to the test and see the actual consequences, instead of all the speculation.

Come on USAPA. If you're so confident that the NIC is dead and the 9th gave you permission to do whatever you want to, get the ball rolling already. What's the hold up?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Your opinion only. Everyone's entitled to one. Too bad not many people agree with yours. :blink:

You keep saying that, and you keep being wrong. The majority of working people find DOH to be the MOST fair system. It's even been called "the gold standard" of seniority integrations.

ALPA STILL SUX!

 

[cleardirect]

You keep saying that, and you keep being wrong. The majority of working people find DOH to be the MOST fair system. It's even been called "the gold standard" of seniority integrations.

ALPA STILL SUX!

Do the majority of people fly airplanes? Do other unions get a 40% pay raise by working a different airplane or position?

So what would you call the W-2 proposal that AAA wanted for the Trump pilots?

If DOH is the gold standard and "fair" then I guess you tried to screw the trump guys. Integrity from the start.

ALPA is gone let it go.

WWUD