US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/29-10/7

[nycbusdriver]

Then what?

We begin to yet again repeat all the same old arguments and pontifications we've seen here for the past several years. We've beaten the skeleton of the dead horse into dust finer than talcum powder. We will attempt molecular division, maybe even atomic fission.

 

[cynic]

Then what?

More claims of bias and another appeal?

 

[dgriffit]

Yep,
Probably. Your side would do it too, count on it. Lets just accept the fact this will have to go through the courts as far as it can, as neither side will rest until it does. Thats life.

 

[Metroyet]

Yep,
Probably. Your side would do it too, count on it. Lets just accept the fact this will have to go through the courts as far as it can, as neither side will rest until it does. Thats life.

How will you know that this dispute is truly over? When common sense becomes stronger than wishful thinking? At what point will it become obvious, even to the most ardent supporter, that "final and binding" means just that?

Really, how will the collective East and the A.F.O.C finally come to realize that this "fight" is over?

If the 9th rejects, and the SCOTUS tells Seham to pound sand...is that really going to be the end of this fratricidal campaign from the East?

 

[dgriffit]

How will you know that this dispute is truly over? When common sense becomes stronger than wishful thinking? At what point will it become obvious, even to the most ardent supporter, that "final and binding" means just that?

Really, how will the collective East and the A.F.O.C finally come to realize that this "fight" is over?

If the 9th rejects, and the SCOTUS tells Seham to pound sand...is that really going to be the end of this fratricidal campaign from the East?

IMHO, I think the "final and binding" position by the west is way too far in the rear view mirror to hope the east might some how have a "gee, maybe it is" thought now. I think too many people feel they were disenfranchised allot more than they ever expected to be, and they wont just accept the ruling until they are forced to.

So you ask, "when will they accept it? Either when the money runs out to fight it further, or the will runs out to fight it further, or if a better deal comes along that makes this one more palatable, or when the last court option forces them too. All emotion aside, that seems to be the bottom line.

Your right, we might be cutting off our nose despite our face, but I think people would say they had to try. And BTW, I do have no doubt that if the roles were reversed, the west would be doing the exact same thing. It may have become personal for some people, but it really is not for the vast majority of Pilots.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If the 9th rejects, and the SCOTUS tells Seham to pound sand...is that really going to be the end of this fratricidal campaign from the East?

From a legal standpoint, yes.

Following that, no matter who wins, for safety's sake I hope we don't see a joint contract and joint operations for many years. There are a lot of hot buttons just waiting to be pushed (on both sides,) and there are a lot of morons (on both sides) out there just waiting to push them. As far as I can see, separate ops is the only viable solution.

 

[CSA007]

Any truth to the Republic crew room rumor ..... that the East going to AA and west going to Republic?

 

[exB717Flyer]

Completely true. You can safely believe every rumor the Easties spew on the internet.

 

[cleardirect]

From a legal standpoint, yes.

Following that, no matter who wins, for safety's sake I hope we don't see a joint contract and joint operations for many years. There are a lot of hot buttons just waiting to be pushed (on both sides,) and there are a lot of morons (on both sides) out there just waiting to push them. As far as I can see, separate ops is the only viable solution.

Please do not throw the safety card yet again. Every time something comes up the east calls “safetyâ€￾. Just admit that personally it is advantageous to have separate ops until you retire. That is a much more honest position.

I think the east will have a very hard time convincing the FAA that it is a safety issue. Never in the history of mergers has the FAA not allowed two pilot groups to fly together. Even thought history shows that there is usually at least an accident when merging.

So the only people that think it is a safety issue are the same people that are looking for any excuse not to finish this thing. The same people that thought that final and binding only applied to the four merger reps. As professionals it is up to us to get past whatever outside influences there are and do the job we were hired to do. If some are not able to do that, it is time to move on to another profession or carrier.

 

[cleardirect]

IMHO, I think the "final and binding" position by the west is way too far in the rear view mirror to hope the east might some how have a "gee, maybe it is" thought now. I think too many people feel they were disenfranchised allot more than they ever expected to be, and they wont just accept the ruling until they are forced to.

So you ask, "when will they accept it? Either when the money runs out to fight it further, or the will runs out to fight it further, or if a better deal comes along that makes this one more palatable, or when the last court option forces them too. All emotion aside, that seems to be the bottom line.

Your right, we might be cutting off our nose despite our face, but I think people would say they had to try. And BTW, I do have no doubt that if the roles were reversed, the west would be doing the exact same thing. It may have become personal for some people, but it really is not for the vast majority of Pilots.

We are now subjected to the kindergarten excuse of “what I am doing is OK because you would do it too.â€￾

What the west is doing to forcing the east into living up to what they agreed to. Nothing more. The east pilots went into this merger eyes wide open fully understanding this process. After all how many times did we hear “we have been through this many times, let us handle thisâ€￾ You guys were the expects. So you knew what the consequences of arbitration were.

When the stomping of feet and crying to national did not work the next step was court. After that it was change the rules to your advantage, new union. That still did not work as the federal system tends to not like disadvantaging minorities.
When the ninth rules that should be the end of this adventure. BTW the excuse that we would do the same thing is incorrect. Currently the west has won. If the ninth agrees with us again we do not have to do anything. It is usapa choice to try the SCOTUS if they lose, it is not a requirement. If usapa wins in the ninth the best they can hope for is a re trial in front of judge Wake again.

The question was asked. When will you accept it? When will it end? What happens if the SCOTUS denies hearing the case? Will that be it? Is that what it is going to take? Can we move on from there or is there another step, another union, another hail Mary desperation pass? Tell us what the end is. Will it take bankrupting the union? Will it take a multi-million dollar damage trial to finally end this and have the east accept what has been obvious to the rest of the world for several years now? Maybe we all have to wait for many east pilots to retire under LOA93 leaving a bunch of cash on the table that would have been helpful in retirement.

Tick tock gentleman. Time is running out before some have to leave this garden spot. Just heard a rumor that we were at least a year and half from a contract as it is. For all of you desperately waiting for the attrition. Those 100 190 furloughs are going to drag that captain line just a little further away. If the rest of those 190’s go it moves it even more. But hey you have seen this before. The bottom of the list moves up faster than the top of the list falls off.

Let me ask, at AAA does attrition mean losing a captain slot or moving to reserve from line holder? Because that seems to happen a lot. To me attrition means moving up not down. But then again maybe you guys attrite off the bottom on the top like the rest of the industry.

 

[Awa Contract]

I for one would like to think that pilots on both side are professionals and could work together if the need arose. That doesn't mean they would like it but I would hope they would set that aside and get the job done.

 

[traderjake]

Your right, we might be cutting off our nose despite our face, but I think people would say they had to try. And BTW, I do have no doubt that if the roles were reversed, the west would be doing the exact same thing.

I don't think so. The Northwest pilots didn't behave like children when they did not get what they wanted.

 

[traderjake]

Following that, no matter who wins, for safety's sake I hope we don't see a joint contract and joint operations for many years. There are a lot of hot buttons just waiting to be pushed (on both sides,) and there are a lot of morons (on both sides) out there just waiting to push them. As far as I can see, separate ops is the only viable solution.

People who can't do their jobs should quit or be fired.

 

[Metroyet]

People who can't do their jobs should quit or be fired.

Agreed.

 

[Piedmont1984]

People who can't do their jobs should quit or be fired.

The point is - they will do their job, so they won't quit or be fired. CRM on the other hand, will suffer enormously, rendering it unrecognizable. This constitutes an unacceptable risk to flight safety. The FAA will maintain a hands off approach and LCC could care less. It will be up to us to recognize that mixing up east and west in the cockpit is the same as going below minimums or flying fatigued.