US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/29-10/7

[ableoneable]

Not really, unless you're talking about a sale to an entity that doesn't have a certificate of it's own and wants to buy a turnkey operation or a carrier that wants a separate operation (ala Repbulic Holdings with Republic, Shuttle America, and Chataqua). Except for those special cases, selling different parts of the airline to different buyers is merely fragmentation. The buyers would already have an operating certificate that the bought operation would be merged with.

Aside from the Eastern Shuttle, consider the TWA dissolution - parts sold off to various buyers with the remainder to AA.

As someone already mentioned, untangling the financial web would be the hard part of splitting US up - which buyer would take on which debt (not counting EETC's that would go with the airplanes financed that way).

Jim

I stand corrected.

 

[TheBadCat1313]

Not really, unless you're talking about a sale to an entity that doesn't have a certificate of it's own and wants to buy a turnkey operation or a carrier that wants a separate operation (ala Repbulic Holdings with Republic, Shuttle America, and Chataqua). Except for those special cases, selling different parts of the airline to different buyers is merely fragmentation. The buyers would already have an operating certificate that the bought operation would be merged with.

Aside from the Eastern Shuttle, consider the TWA dissolution - parts sold off to various buyers with the remainder to AA.

As someone already mentioned, untangling the financial web would be the hard part of splitting US up - which buyer would take on which debt (not counting EETC's that would go with the airplanes financed that way).

Jim

Not sure what you're getting at by using TWA as an example? Yes, AA divested some of the assets in the process, including the DC-9's and 717's, but the TWA certificate remained intact for about three years after the transaction closed. Nobody who bought the TWA airplanes took any pilots or any other employees, for that matter. They just bought the planes and operated them on their certificates.

If you're saying that airplanes, gates and parts can be sold off to other carriers, I agree whole-heartedly. But to split an operating entity that is on one certificate and continue to have both parts function as individual airlines is something I'm having a hard time envisioning. Can you provide an example of where this has occured?

 

[nycbusdriver]

It is you, and the others, who believe that a split USAirways is valuable to American or anyone else who are truly grasping at any straw available that provides a path away from the results of your own short sided stupidity.

Show me in which post I ever said anything like that? Please be specific.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Don't forget the 150 west pilots on furlough also.

That means that 2489 pilots were hired at UAL in 3 years between 1996-1999. Somehow I don’t think that is the case.

I didn't. Using the Nic list will place those furloughed among active United Captains on a combined % list. Unless Jim is correct and the top 2500 are mostly United - guess who the bottom 2500 would be?

Of course 2400 + pilots weren't hired. The pay differential between widebody F/O and reserve narrowbody Capt is so slight that many choose to stay put in the right seat causing Capt to go more junior than the West model.

All good academic points but I'll say it again, best of luck with a group ALPA hug and breaking that log jam.

 

[cleardirect]

Looking at the statistics from airline pilot central.

Removing the UAL 737 because they are all gone this month.

362 total aircraft, 113 WB, 97 757, 152 320’s

USA

344 total aircraft, 22 WB, 35 757, 272 320/737, 15 190’s.

So that means that USA is 95% the size just 18 aircraft less than UAL. But as you can see 79% of our aircraft are narrow body compared to 41.9% of UAL. Just 6.3% of USA WB compared to 31.2% at UAL.

Again I quote Nicolau. “each merger turns on it’s own facts†Using the AAA/AWA methodology does not work in this situation. Placing 31.3 % of UAL above then begin slotting the Nicolau would be a huge windfall for UAL.

I would venture a guess that the integration would be much closer to the top of the UAL list with 5 maybe more year WB only fences. The number 1 US Airways pilot could be slotted in the top 5-10% and ratioed in. They get the seniority just not the WB that UAL brought. Same with the bottom. Furloughs go below active. Maybe they ratio from the bottom up this time.

Take a look at the NWA/DAL merger. There are DC-9 f/o’s next to 767 f/o’s. A 5 year fence protects those WB jobs for a little time but they still hold seniority in the rest of the system.

There are many ways to do an intgration. Each one different. That is why ALPA does not set an outcome but a process. It is funny that looking at the UAL list the east sees unfairness in slotting the WB guys above the rest of the list. But in our case it was fine. You see unfairness in slotting east captains down with UAL WB fo/s but saw no unfairness with slotting east furloughed f/o’s with west captains.

Take a look at several other pilot mergers and see the different ways to merge a list.

 

[cleardirect]

I didn't. Using the Nic list will place those furloughed among active United Captains on a combined % list. Unless Jim is correct and the top 2500 are mostly United - guess who the bottom 2500 would be?

Of course 2400 + pilots weren't hired. The pay differential between widebody F/O and reserve narrowbody Capt is so slight that many choose to stay put in the right seat causing Capt to go more junior than the West model.

All good academic points but I'll say it again, best of luck with a group ALPA hug and breaking that log jam.

Exactly, now look at the Nic list circa 2009 and try to mesh it using 100 East and 1500 UAL furloughs.

I did not see where they were acknowledged. The 100 east and 1500 UAL no mention of west furloughs.

 

[BoeingBoy]

But to split an operating entity that is on one certificate and continue to have both parts function as individual airlines is something I'm having a hard time envisioning. Can you provide an example of where this has occured?

I can't think of one which is why I said "unless you're talking about a sale to an entity that doesn't have a certificate of it's own and wants to buy a turnkey operation or a carrier that wants a separate operation (ala Repbulic Holdings with Republic, Shuttle America, and Chataqua)". Those situations (and the Republic purchases were of entire airlines) require an operating certificate for the purchased carrier or part thereof. Obviously, to split an airline and have the parts function as separate stand-alone airlines would require op certificates for each part.

However, the talk about splitting US up envisions the parts going to existing airlines each with their own certificate so the airline purchasing a part would ultimately operate it on it's certificate. The closest I can come to that was the proposed US/UA merger that had part of US going to UA, the Shuttle and F100's going to AA, and yet a third (and final) part going to BET founder Bob Johnson to be a stand-alone carrier out of DCA using Dash 8's. Apparently UA and AA didn't envision too much difficulty splitting US up.

Probably one of two methods would be used. The FAA could issue an op certificate to one of the parts for the transition period (the other part would continue to operate on the original certificate). After the transition the two identical op certificates would be surrendered by the acquiring carriers. The other alternative is to have a transition period where the personnel/equipment would be transitioned to the purchasing carriers over time - operating on the US certificate until attending training to allow operation on the acquiring carriers certificate. That's how the sale of the 170's to Republic proceeded (and probably how the sale of the 190's will proceed if fragmentation protection is triggered)

Jim

 

[mach92flyr]

Why would anyone want US Airways? UAL has no need for PHX, LAS, PHL or CLT. Please show me why this is even discussed here. UAL pilots hate the East and don't care about the West. I just can't see it happening. What does anyone else see that I am missing.

 

[wings396]

Why would anyone want US Airways? UAL has no need for PHX, LAS, PHL or CLT. Please show me why this is even discussed here. UAL pilots hate the East and don't care about the West. I just can't see it happening. What does anyone else see that I am missing.

If you don't see the "need" for UA to have CLT, PHL, and the Shuttle, you must not be too familair with UA's route system. While I can see that PHX, and LAS may not be a huge asset to them due to their route structure in the West & Midwest, the East is their weak point. CLT is the only other SE hub that is in direct competition with ATL, and PHL is a moneymaker for US like it or not. The Intl. operation alone is worth having.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Why would anyone want US Airways? UAL has no need for PHX, LAS, PHL or CLT. Please show me why this is even discussed here.

The reason is the Easties think a split-up would benefit them so they engage in wishful thinking.

 

[Poug Darker]

cleardirect:
Looking at the statistics from airline pilot central.
Removing the UAL 737 because they are all gone this month.
362 total aircraft, 113 WB, 97 757, 152 320’s
USA
344 total aircraft, 22 WB, 35 757, 272 320/737, 15 190’s.
So that means that USA is 95% the size just 18 aircraft less than UAL. But as you can see 79% of our aircraft are narrow body compared to 41.9% of UAL. Just 6.3% of USA WB compared to 31.2% at UAL."

Math is wrong.
UAL: 69% Narrow, 31% WB
US: 94.6% Narrow, 6.4% WB

Cheers

 

[cleardirect]

Poug Darker you are correct.

I stand corrected.

 

[cleardirect]

Oral arguments set for Dec. 8, SFO.

Should be interesting. 15 minutes for each side.

 

[hp_fa]

An audio recording of the hearing should be available from the Court the following day.

 

[Waketurbulence]

Then what?