US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

He is quite a guy.

And that is my point. I just looked at the stats on this forum for the past years. I had 754 posts since may 8 2007.

Does anybody, including me, think it's made any difference? I don't really know unless I run across someone at work or at the union meetings and we discuss it....live, in person and respectfully.......without the name calling. That's where the rubber meets the road, not here.

The theory is the web boards are a good release of ideas, and to that I might agree, for the most part. But funny things happen on the way to the store. In David Braids case, as on this forum, sometimes things that are put in print can come back to haunt you.

I don't wish a lawsuit on anyone, including Braid. But the difference between what we did with ALPA up at Herndon and what was done to the USAPA offices with the hate mail and excrement are night and day. The excrement was there, I even know who got it because I talked to him personally. It had to stop so USAPA could continue where ALPA left off....BY LAW. And to do that the mail terror had to stop. It has and USAPA has moved on. Unfortunately a few eggs were broken in the process and Braid happened to be one of them. However, look at him now. He is a BPR rep even if he doesn't want to be and he IS representing his constituents....even when he was at the PHX crew news.

And that has always been my input on any organization.....it takes lifting by all the members of that organization.....real, physical hard work, just like David Benehke did with ALPA. It was extremely difficult and they didn't even have the Internet! I can show you a picture of a plate of bacon and eggs on this web board, but you definitely wouldn't say I "fed" you breakfast. I didn't kill and dress the pig or own the chickens that produced the eggs. Heck, I probably didn't even go to the store, my wife usually does that....probably cooks the breakfast too! But a picture of breakfast doesn't satisfy hunger no matter how long you look at it.

Neither do the web boards. For the proper exchange of ideas, this must be done in person, and not even done in a court room.

You can hate "USAPA", "ALPA"', "al quaeda"' "France"' "United States of America" "George Bush", and so own. You're entitled to your voice on that and in some of these issues you can affect change....either with a "mob" mentality or through a democratic process. Minorities march peacefully in Washington all the time, just like we did at Herndon.

But you won't see peaceful marchers destroying property or they'll get arrested. Braid is doing it the right way and I would suggest, to Become more effective, the destructive rhetoric on this forum may need to be toned down when you're doing your job....you know, the one that provides the real bacon and eggs....not the picture.

The United pilots are running across the same problem....only a united pilot front, with real pilots, I might add, will prove effective. Anything else is, well, just like shoveling sh!t in Louisiana.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Hey, is there some reason my "warn" status didn't go higher for "outing" myself? 😛

(just wanted to use an emoticon for a change!). Feels good coming out of the closet!

 

[end_of_alpa]

The Movie is titled Matewan Filmed in 1987, Written and directed by John Sayles (Lonestar, 8 Men Out, Secret of Roan Innish and about 10 more). The movie portrays the events leading up to the Matewan Massacre which was the start of the WV Coal Field Wars. My dear friend the late Hazel Dickens wrote and performed most of the songs. Below are two links. One about the movie and the other about what actually happened in Matewan. It's a splendid movie.


Matewan Massacre

Matewan the movie

C. E. Lively was a spy for the Baldwin Felts Detectives hired by the Coal Company. 13 months later C. E. Lively shot Sheriff Sid Hatfield on the steps of the McDowell County Courthouse in broad daylight and was NEVER brought to trial. Sid was shot 13 times on those steps. Lively's bullet was between the eyes

Thanks for the information. I read not only about Matewan, but also about the battle of Blair mountain. I also clicked on two very related links....Warren Harding and confederate homegard throughout the hatfield and McCoy feud.

History repeats itself....even here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

 

[Pi brat]

USAPA supporters: Are you tired of this yet? Cleary has legally spent "us" into a hole and IS NOT prepared for another merger. Are you satisfied with the way your dues money is being spent? If so, you can help us all by getting involved and make necessary changes in our constitution. Please join us at: www.reformusapa.com. Even if you do not subscribe to the petition regarding seniority, you most certainly should read the two others (voting dynamic & putting a muzzle on Cleary before he runs the ship aground).

Serious question, if you are willing to share: How is reform USAPA doing? Are you getting much of a response from east pilots?

Anyone know how the recall of Cleary is going?

 

[Metroyet]

Thanks for the information. I read not only about Matewan, but also about the battle of Blair mountain. I also clicked on two very related links....Warren Harding and confederate homegard throughout the hatfield and McCoy feud.

History repeats itself....even here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

As you admire the actions at Matewan, remember that if you did to the coal miners what you/uscaba is attempting to do to the West pilots...things would be Very VERY different. A Federal Judge would be the absolute least of your worries. You are beyond lucky to live in a modern civil society.

 

[Pi brat]

Hey, is there some reason my "warn" status didn't go higher for "outing" myself? 😛

(just wanted to use an emoticon for a change!). Feels good coming out of the closet!

I guess you can out yourself, just not anyone else. I know a certain wise one's incorrect outing post got pulled pretty quickly.

 

[Pi brat]

I don't wish a lawsuit on anyone, including Braid. But the difference between what we did with ALPA up at Herndon and what was done to the USAPA offices with the hate mail and excrement are night and day. The excrement was there, I even know who got it because I talked to him personally. It had to stop so USAPA could continue where ALPA left off....BY LAW. And to do that the mail terror had to stop. It has and USAPA has moved on. Unfortunately a few eggs were broken in the process and Braid happened to be one of them. However, look at him now. He is a BPR rep even if he doesn't want to be and he IS representing his constituents....even when he was at the PHX crew news.

I know we've kind of agreed to disagree on this, but since you brought it up B)

I believe the acts happened and I agree that USAPA needed to stop them. The problem I had with USAPA was that I thought they had (mostly) the wrong people and refused to stop when the actions against them stopped. Quite a few pilots (and their families) that were doing nothing more than what we are do here-venting-were put through the wringer. In the process they turned 24 or so people in to martyrs, helped the west unify even more, and I'm guessing those lawsuits helped raise more money for AOL than the C18 defense fund. Not the kind of high thinking I want from my leaders.

So, if you run for office you need to listen to me

 

[Black Swan]

As you admire the actions at Matewan, remember that if you did to the coal miners what you/uscaba is attempting to do to the West pilots...things would be Very VERY different. A Federal Judge would be the absolute least of your worries. You are beyond lucky to live in a modern civil society.

Look in the mirror. You constantly crow about the east being on LOA 93 and laugh at not doing anything about it. Your reality is distorted and self serving. You yourself, and your compatriots continue to make the point that east pilots are on a lower pay scale.Less vacation, less rigs. And the worst, no crew meals! 😀 Where is the damage in that? How is your plight worse, where is YOUR damage? There is none, merely a figment of your imagination and pursuit of legal remedy. How are you like coal miners in any way? Any of us? How is an east pilot with 18 yrs solid service with no furlough being put next to a new hire not damage? Think clearly friend. You have no case, none at all.

 

[Squonk]

:angry:
I'd like to make a point from the perspective of the customer service group. The games being played among the pilot groups are obvious to us and to the public. Your inane antics are splintering the camaraderie between all employee groups.
We recently had one of your yellow lanyard captains say he "spotted" a few loose panel fasteners on the vertical stabilizer of a 319. Maintenance had to go up in the bucket with a cordless driver to torque a couple fasteners that were no way visible to the naked eye on a walk around. They essentially had to "snug" these fasteners. I’m sure over time one could find this issue on any aircraft in the commercial fleet in this country. This was only a minor incident, yet blatantly a petty stunt.
While there are legitimate maintenance issues that affect the safety of a flight, there is a ground swell of activity by some of our pilots to intentionally disrupt the flow of our operation with frivolous maintenance issues. This activity is a reflection on how you feel about the capacity of our maintenance workers, customer service workers, our dispatchers and most importantly, our customers. They have a choice, they can walk, we can’t.
Your job action is raising hell at the airports. We hear your conversations and watch your actions. Most of our pilots are true professionals and are embarrassed over the actions of the minority. Those who are causing the problems should get a life or get a new job, if you can find one.

 

[cleardirect]

Look in the mirror. You constantly crow about the east being on LOA 93 and laugh at not doing anything about it. Your reality is distorted and self serving. You yourself, and your compatriots continue to make the point that east pilots are on a lower pay scale.Less vacation, less rigs. And the worst, no crew meals! 😀 Where is the damage in that? How is your plight worse, where is YOUR damage? There is none, merely a figment of your imagination and pursuit of legal remedy. How are you like coal miners in any way? Any of us? How is an east pilot with 18 yrs solid service with no furlough being put next to a new hire not damage? Think clearly friend. You have no case, none at all.

Yes the east is on LOA 93. That has nothing to do with the west. It was your company that was about to close the doors. It was your pilots that voted to accept LOA 93. It is the east pilots that are keeping east pilots on LOA 93. We are laughing because it is a self inflicted wound but you guys are so blinded by the Nicolau that you can’t see that.

The damage is caused by east pilot blinded by emotion keeping west pilots from a better contract.

BTW nice attempt at trying to overstate your position. It is 16.8 years not 18 years. That guy with 16.8 years was the bottom junior reserve pilot for the airline. The exact same position that a new hire at AWA held. That is really what 16.8 years bought you at AAA.

That really is the problem for you east pilots. Nicolau forced you to take a hard look at your careers. 16 years of your lives wasted at AAA to be worse off that you were as a new hire in 1988. After 23 years you guys were still on reserve. When you compare that to the career of an AWA pilots it had to piss you off. Heck, compare your carrier with any major airline and it has to piss you off. But east pilots agreed to a process. A third party created a list. You are not going to invent your own list and try and make up for 16 years of a failed carrier at the expense of the west pilots.

The damage is the delay caused entirely by east pilots. You are damaging yourselves. That is self inflicted. To bad. Our damage is caused by the east.

 

[end_of_alpa]

As you admire the actions at Matewan, remember that if you did to the coal miners what you/uscaba is attempting to do to the West pilots...things would be Very VERY different. A Federal Judge would be the absolute least of your worries. You are beyond lucky to live in a modern civil society.

I thought you left?

What does a "non-pilot" know about labor issues. especially ours, other than maybe what you read here on the webboard....which, by the way, you influence no one, at least no one who votes on pilot matters. so somehow you equate us with below average work conditions, killing our fellow workers, etc.....did you even read those history threads? Are you implying that if the law wern't here the West pilots would rise up, attack USAPA supporters and declare victory??? Even I had never believed that a majority of any group of employees, escpecially West pilots, would even consider doing somethimg like that. You did'nt insult ME or USAPA with a statement like that, you simply insulted the overwhelming majority of the West pilots who would not even think of doing something like that to fellow pilots, disagreements aside.

I don't know who you are, but from what I can tell your twisted thinking leads me to believe you need professional help. Either that, or maybe that you probably have your own experience with "crossing a picket line in a prior career and wish you hadn't" moment? That is who I believe is the kind of person you are, but I won't say the name.

Tell us, what relationship do you have with former AWA employees/pilots that cause you to "hang here" so much?

You can't vote, just like the others who come and go that can't vote. So, why here?

Lonliness? You'll have better luck picking up boyfriends from the pictures in the post office.

 

[Black Swan]

:angry:
I'd like to make a point from the perspective of the customer service group. The games being played among the pilot groups are obvious to us and to the public. Your inane antics are splintering the camaraderie between all employee groups.
We recently had one of your yellow lanyard captains say he "spotted" a few loose panel fasteners on the vertical stabilizer of a 319. Maintenance had to go up in the bucket with a cordless driver to torque a couple fasteners that were no way visible to the naked eye on a walk around. They essentially had to "snug" these fasteners. I’m sure over time one could find this issue on any aircraft in the commercial fleet in this country. This was only a minor incident, yet blatantly a petty stunt.
While there are legitimate maintenance issues that affect the safety of a flight, there is a ground swell of activity by some of our pilots to intentionally disrupt the flow of our operation with frivolous maintenance issues. This activity is a reflection on how you feel about the capacity of our maintenance workers, customer service workers, our dispatchers and most importantly, our customers. They have a choice, they can walk, we can’t.
Your job action is raising hell at the airports. We hear your conversations and watch your actions. Most of our pilots are true professionals and are embarrassed over the actions of the minority. Those who are causing the problems should get a life or get a new job, if you can find one.

A pilot doing a walk around is responsible for the pre flight of the aircraft. If he had reason to suspect there was a loose panel, then better safe than sorry. After all, they are not going to go to you if the panel comes off. I guarantee they will ask the pilot, and mechanics. You, will never be asked. So it is entirely the discretion of a pilot to have a mechanic look into potentially loose panels. I have seen numerous loose screws on aircraft. Many times we are asked by passengers to look at them, and believe it or not, very often the passengers are correct- they are missing. I think you are finding the results to be the fact many of our stations have had maintenance taken away. Statistically, most of the write ups were addressed in the maintenance bases. As aircraft age, and fly to stations that have no maintenance, you are finding delays. It is the company s choice to remove maintenance from out stations. Pilots do walk arounds EVERY stop. There are going to be bulbs burned out, as well as other issues. They are addressing them, as required. I think you are overly sensitive to a situation that involves aircraft getting older, as well as no maintenance in out stations. There is absolutely no job action going on.

 

[Black Swan]

Yes the east is on LOA 93. That has nothing to do with the west. It was your company that was about to close the doors. It was your pilots that voted to accept LOA 93. It is the east pilots that are keeping east pilots on LOA 93. We are laughing because it is a self inflicted wound but you guys are so blinded by the Nicolau that you can’t see that.

The damage is caused by east pilot blinded by emotion keeping west pilots from a better contract.

BTW nice attempt at trying to overstate your position. It is 16.8 years not 18 years. That guy with 16.8 years was the bottom junior reserve pilot for the airline. The exact same position that a new hire at AWA held. That is really what 16.8 years bought you at AAA.

That really is the problem for you east pilots. Nicolau forced you to take a hard look at your careers. 16 years of your lives wasted at AAA to be worse off that you were as a new hire in 1988. After 23 years you guys were still on reserve. When you compare that to the career of an AWA pilots it had to piss you off. Heck, compare your carrier with any major airline and it has to piss you off. But east pilots agreed to a process. A third party created a list. You are not going to invent your own list and try and make up for 16 years of a failed carrier at the expense of the west pilots.

The damage is the delay caused entirely by east pilots. You are damaging yourselves. That is self inflicted. To bad. Our damage is caused by the east.

Sorry, only 16.8 yrs. In your entitled world, this is still OK. You will never get the Nic. As McIlvenna was told to his face, "all the risk lies with the west...."

 

[end_of_alpa]

:angry:
I'd like to make a point from the perspective of the customer service group. The games being played among the pilot groups are obvious to us and to the public. Your inane antics are splintering the camaraderie between all employee groups.
We recently had one of your yellow lanyard captains say he "spotted" a few loose panel fasteners on the vertical stabilizer of a 319. Maintenance had to go up in the bucket with a cordless driver to torque a couple fasteners that were no way visible to the naked eye on a walk around. They essentially had to "snug" these fasteners. I’m sure over time one could find this issue on any aircraft in the commercial fleet in this country. This was only a minor incident, yet blatantly a petty stunt.
While there are legitimate maintenance issues that affect the safety of a flight, there is a ground swell of activity by some of our pilots to intentionally disrupt the flow of our operation with frivolous maintenance issues. This activity is a reflection on how you feel about the capacity of our maintenance workers, customer service workers, our dispatchers and most importantly, our customers. They have a choice, they can walk, we can’t.
Your job action is raising hell at the airports. We hear your conversations and watch your actions. Most of our pilots are true professionals and are embarrassed over the actions of the minority. Those who are causing the problems should get a life or get a new job, if you can find one.

So let me ask YOU a question: if what YOU say is even HALF true, you certainly non-rev on the airline, and maybe even your family non-revs on the airline. My family is, in fact coming home today on one of our flights....MY FAMILY! And you, of all people, seem to call into question whether the pilot who walks around sees fasteners that need to be inspected on the A319? Tell me, how long have YOU been flying the Airbus? Tell me, what expertise to you have in maintenance?

A petty stunt? I think YOU better rethink what IS and ISN'T a petty stunt. Safety is NO GAME....it's not only the LAW, it's YOUR FAMILIES LIVES.

I'll tell you what, why don't you write to the families of the Air France A330 that crashed off Brasil and ask THEM if THEY think this pilot...doing his LEGAL, REQUIRED BY LAW, PREFLIGHT INSPECTION, is engaged in a frivoluse activity. I do not know what you are hearing, but if pilots DIDN"T do that which IS required of them, namely, what THIS pilot DID do, how do YOU know that that aircraft may or may not be at the bottom of the ocean with YOUR family members??? I fly South America, the North Atlantic FREQUENTLY and it is very easy for "a few fasteners" to make a "routine" day turn into a catastrophie. Instead of casting stones, why don't you GO AND ASK THE PILOT WHY HE WROTE IT UP IN THE FDML AS REQUIRED, NOT ONLY BY LAW, BUT FOR SAFETYS SAKE?? HMMMMM?

I cannot speak to what conversations YOU'VE been hearing but from where I sit, with MY responsiblities....THAT AIRCRAFT GOES NO WHERE UNLESS AND UNTIL I SAY ITS SAFE UNDER THE FLIGHT OPERATIONS MANUAL, TO DO SO!

"Our customers" also have a right to their lives, and so does YOU and YOUR FAMILY.....keep that in mind the next time you consider yourselves "experts" on the flight line.

Also, let me just say this, and I think I speak for the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PILOTS ON THIS AIRLINE:

DO NOT MISTAKE THE SENIORITY SQABBLES ON THIS FORUM TO INDICATE WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE ON ANY PILOTS AGENDA......SAFETY FIRST, WHETHER ITS EAST OR WEST, PERIOD.

Now with all due respect, I am perfectly willing to let you do your job, how about letting US DO OURS!

 

[700UW]

Actually its maintenance who says the plane is safe or not, they are the ones who sign the Airworthy block in the logbook, they are the ones who repair the plane, sign off the job card and logbook, not a pilot.