US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Reed Richards]

Havfen't we played this game before? As soon as you say "without guessing for grow or shrinkage" you're introducing expectations into the mix - the expectation that the future fleets will remain static indefinitely. However, US had canceled all outstanding delivery dates and reached agreements with the lessors to return aircraft - agreements signed months before the merger was announced. Not as good for the East, so let's disregard facts and instead use the assumption of a static East fleet. Likewise, HP had delivery positions/dates for additional aircraft as of the merger announcement, as well as new hires lined up to start class to staff the growing fleet. Not so good for the East so disregard those facts also.

So you end up with an assumption that favors the East while disregarding facts that favor the West.

Jim

How about a DOH list based only on what aircraft were actually on the property(s)?

Maybe some fences and restrictions to protect the career expectations of those pilots with only two crew bases (and now 1) to aspire to, and no wide bodies in sight. Nobody saved anybody. No single pilot saved any other pilot's job. Mattlock thinks Obama's healthcare is the end all be all. Go figure.

Reach down Jim, push that lever and recline. You may take solace in the fact you are off the property..but you would never find a single F/O that would now fly with you based on your current view of Seniority. That is a fact you will, thankfully, never be able to refute.

RR

 

[nic4us]

You got me there Nic. I am sure Lincoln was thinking about a small scab based airline formed in a State that did not even exist when he wrote that.

You go girl. There is no "equal' in senority. You get what you get, based on when you were hired. Nothing more.

RR

wow, you got me there with that scab comment. Must bother you then to know a scab airline bought yours, huh?

No "equal" to seniority either. You get what you get based on the seniority awarded by the arbitrator. Nothing more.

PS. Arizona was the 48th state admitted to the Union on Feb, 14th, 1912. In essence, Arizona's DOH to the Union is third from last, yet I don't see North Carolina trying to steal our Senate seats.

 

[BoeingBoy]

There is NO such thing as relative position in life.

I certainly hope you're kidding. You're the 3rd care in line at the stoplight - doesn't matter if the cars in front of you are older or newer, you're still third in line. Some people have more net worth than others - when they started accumulating that net worth doesn't matter. All of life is filled with relative positions.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Just to be clear I was not calling you pathetic. Just those who predictably post links to redirect attention from the question or comment at hand, or throw trash, insults, and flame bait.

The problem with your method is that once again it favors the east. Hitting gates is speculating on the future. It is conjecture. As Jim points out, on the day of the merger East was returning aircraft and shrinking, west was taking delivery and expanding. This was a fact the day of the merger, and ignoring it in favor of a static world seems rather convenient since it favors the east.

Like it or not, the arbitrated list is the only one that really exists. You guys have been throwing money away every day for years on a fools errand that will lead you back to where you started, while accumulating nothing but damages. The only path ever to modify the nic was through mutual consent of east and west, which USAPA eliminated all by themselves. As time goes on it becomes easier to prove deliberate intention to delay and benefit from separate ops, failing a duty to represent the west. Nothing said on this forum will change that.

I didn't take that you were calling me pathetic, but I don't want anyone calling my sister names either, so you can understand.

How many of those west airplanes on order were deferred? How many do you think would have been returned after LAS had to be shuttered? You think there was any chance that those east airplanes were scheduled to be returned in order to get the merger done? You weren't around to see how fast the HoJo's painted Mesa RJ showed up in CLT to replace them. US was in CH 11, so those were the easiest to get rid of.

How about the placement of formerly furloughed pilots junior to all west pilots, even though they had returned to work before the Nic award came out? Using a date in time was really "convenient" for the west pilots, huh?

I didn't come up with my feeling after the merger in order to favor myself, as you seem to indicate.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Just to be clear I was not calling you pathetic. Just those who predictably post links to redirect attention from the question or comment at hand, or throw trash, insults, and flame bait.

The problem with your method is that once again it favors the east. Hitting gates is speculating on the future. It is conjecture. As Jim points out, on the day of the merger East was returning aircraft and shrinking, west was taking delivery and expanding. This was a fact the day of the merger, and ignoring it in favor of a static world seems rather convenient since it favors the east.

Like it or not, the arbitrated list is the only one that really exists. You guys have been throwing money away every day for years on a fools errand that will lead you back to where you started, while accumulating nothing but damages. The only path ever to modify the nic was through mutual consent of east and west, which USAPA eliminated all by themselves. As time goes on it becomes easier to prove deliberate intention to delay and benefit from separate ops, failing a duty to represent the west. Nothing said on this forum will change that.

Well you got part of it right look in the MIRROR JETZ and say to yourself"NOTHING SAID ON THIS FORUM WILL CHANGE THAT", So we say, "PROVE IT"! Now why don't you go and explain to your furloughs how they are going to get thrown under the bus, but since it won't effect you it is for your greater good, other than that your a fly at a picnic!MM!

 

[Reed Richards]

wow, you got me there with that scab comment. Must bother you then to know a scab airline bought yours, huh?

No "equal" to seniority either. You get what you get based on the seniority awarded by the arbitrator. Nothing more.

PS. Arizona was the 48th state admitted to the Union on Feb, 14th, 1912. In essence, Arizona's DOH to the Union is third from last, yet I don't see North Carolina trying to steal our Senate seats.

Actually, no award by an ALPA hired and fired arbitrator is binding to USAPA.

There is actually seniority in the US Senate, so any of your 2, and only 2 reps positions on committees would have been based on their years in service, read seniority.

AZ get its two seats (positions on a list of 100) but their seniority determines what committees they chair. God bless America, seniority rules.

RR

 

[AWE Dog]

I certainly hope you're kidding. You're the 3rd care in line at the stoplight - doesn't matter if the cars in front of you are older or newer, you're still third in line. Some people have more net worth than others - when they started accumulating that net worth doesn't matter. All of life is filled with relative positions.

Jim

JIm, You have it wrong again. The first car in line was the first (like DOH) in it's most basic form. When are people arranged by net worth? Everything is relative. I haven't been given anything due to my relative position? I have never collected wellfare.

 

[cleardirect]

Well you got part of it right look in the MIRROR JETZ and say to yourself"NOTHING SAID ON THIS FORUM WILL CHANGE THAT", So we say, "PROVE IT"! Now why don't you go and explain to your furloughs how they are going to get thrown under the bus, but since it won't effect you it is for your greater good, other than that your a fly at a picnic!MM!

A majority of the Board has also decided that the totality of premerger career expectations weighs in favor of active pilots as of the date of the announcement. When one considers the number and
length of furloughs on the US Airways side and the dim prospects the airline faced and compares it to the lack of furloughs on the America West side, which furloughs ceased to exist long before the merger
took place, merging active pilots with furloughees, despite the length of service of some of the latter, is not at all fair or equitable under any of the stated criteria.

A well respected arbitrator all ready did explain it. Of all the mergers that have taken place. How many placed furloughed pilots among active pilots and how many placed furloughed pilot below active pilots? My guess far more of the latter. Kind of the standard way of doing business.

You all might want to read that bold part again. DOH places furloughed pilot next to captains. Not fair or equitable under any criteria. That means there are no C&R that can make that situation fair.

 

[cleardirect]

JIm, You have it wrong again. The first car in line was the first (like DOH) in it's most basic form. When are people arranged by net worth? Everything is relative. I haven't been given anything due to my relative position? You?

And when you have 2 lane that MERGE into one lane. Who goes first? The car from the first lane and the car from the second lane were both first in their lane. The way I drive you alternate and everyone gets ratioed in the new lane.

Unless you have a cop directing traffic (arbitrator) than he lets one lane go then he stops that lane and lets the other lane go. He does not stop one lane and empty that entire lane before allowing the second lane to go.

 

[BoeingBoy]

How many of those west airplanes on order were deferred?

None that I know of.

How many do you think would have been returned after LAS had to be shuttered?

That's post merger.

You think there was any chance that those east airplanes were scheduled to be returned in order to get the merger done? You weren't around to see how fast the HoJo's painted Mesa RJ showed up in CLT to replace them. US was in CH 11, so those were the easiest to get rid of.

Personally I don't think any of them were. It was all about keeping cash coming in. Canceling the delivery dates resulted in the return of deposits/progress payments and returning leased aircraft early was in exchange for reductions in the lease payments. I was definitely around to see the CRJ900's in CLT, but you have to remember that with separate ops it was easier to move contract Express than anything else. East was losing airplanes and the CRJ900's were the biggest Express planes flying at the time so the obvious replacement.

How about the placement of formerly furloughed pilots junior to all west pilots, even though they had returned to work before the Nic award came out? Using a date in time was really "convenient" for the west pilots, huh?

Nic followed ALPA merger policy - separated the unmerged and merged carrier(s) at the PID. On the PID, those pilots were furloughed. Everything before the PID was pre-merger and every new change afterward was post-merger. But you tell me what better date to separate pre- and post-merger exists? Nic wasn't the only one, BTW. Just look at the out of seniority TA grievance - post merger during separate ops, basically eliminating the 3rd list during post-merger separate ops.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Everything is relative.

We agree then. As for not being given anything based on relative position, didn't your movement from airplane to airplane or seat to sets depend on your relative position on your list? How about when old US furloughed - didn't what you could hold change with your relative position on your list. Granted that on your list DOH determines that relative position, but longevity means nothing across airlines. That's why old US pilots with 10-16 years since DOH were furloughed twice while their peers with later DOH weren't at other airlines. It's why 17 years got junior f/o at old US but capt at other airlines. It is relative position that determines whan one can hold at all airlines big enough to have a seniority list. Relative position, not DOH, is the constant determinant across airlines.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

None that I know of.



That's post merger.



Personally I don't think any of them were. It was all about keeping cash coming in. Canceling the delivery dates resulted in the return of deposits/progress payments and returning leased aircraft early was in exchange for reductions in the lease payments. I was definitely around to see the CRJ900's in CLT, but you have to remember that with separate ops it was easier to move contract Express than anything else. East was losing airplanes and the CRJ900's were the biggest Express planes flying at the time so the obvious replacement.



Nic followed ALPA merger policy - separated the unmerged and merged carrier(s) at the PID. On the PID, those pilots were furloughed. Everything before the PID was pre-merger and every new change afterward was post-merger. But you tell me what better date to separate pre- and post-merger exists? Nic wasn't the only one, BTW. Just look at the out of seniority TA grievance - post merger during separate ops, basically eliminating the 3rd list during post-merger separate ops.

Jim

Of course you are right Jim. Here's a blurb for the 2005 annual report, but tired of trying to break it out, as it doesn't matter.



"In connection with the merger, US Airways Group negotiated reductions to its existing fleet so that
the fleet of the combined company better matches aircraft size with consumer demand. As a result of the
integration of US Airways and AWA, US Airways Group is expected to operate a mainline fleet of
approximately 354 aircraft at the end of 2006 (supported by approximately 240 regional jets and
approximately 103 turboprops that provide passenger feed into the mainline system), down from a total of
411 mainline aircraft operated by the airlines prior to the merger. During 2006, US Airways Group
projects removing 22 aircraft and adding five aircraft to the mainline fleet. During February and March
2006, US Airways Group removed two Boeing 737-300 aircraft from the fleet. In February 2006,
US Airways Group took delivery of two A319 aircraft previously ordered by AWA. Airbus has also agreed
to reschedule 30 narrow-body A320-family aircraft deliveries from the 2006 to 2010 period to the 2009 to
2010 period, which represented the combined commitment of AWA and US Airways prior to the merger.
To modernize its international product and improve the efficiency of its international network, the merged
company will begin accepting deliveries of A350 aircraft in 2011."

 

[Pi brat]

Something else nobody mentions when they talk about the mighty AWA fleet is that they were leased and many leases were due to expire as new aircraft were being delivered. Again from the 2005 annual report:

" In 2006, AWA is expected to take deliveries of two more A319 aircraft and
return eight 737-300s, two A320s and one 757. As of December 31, 2005, 48 aircraft have lease
expirations prior to the end of 2008."

But we know that would have never happened. The CMH hub was kicking you know what, same with the highly successful trans-con service that was expanding and could be duplicated anywhere. Plus PHX ans LAS are still boom towns, immune to bank problems.........................................

 

[BoeingBoy]

Of course you are right Jim. Here's a blurb for the 2005 annual report, but tired of trying to break it out, as it doesn't matter.

Without the breakdown that means little - all references to US Air Group refer to LCC and not the old US. You undoubtedly recall that in conjunction with the merger LCC amended the Airbus purchase agreement (amendment 8 as I recall) which set delivery dates for the old US orders and amended then current HP delivery dates. How much in deposits/progress payments was that worth? Minus $35 million, meaning that old US had zero, nada, zip in prepayments to Airbus.

If you look at the individual fleet breakdowns, you'll see that at the end of 2005 HP had 141 mainline aircraft while East had 232. After that West went down to about min fleet (approx 120 planes or a 14% reduction) while East stayed at least 15 over min fleet due to the E190's (or about the same size mainline fleet as at the end of 2005 although the actual number varied up and down).

As you can see, the West has suffered more loss as a percentage than East since the merger. And as I mentioned in passing earlier in this thread, it's either a 1 in 1,000,000 coincidence or a transfer of hours that make the additional post-merger airplanes that East has gotten require about the same number of pilots recalled to the East as were furloughed from the west.

As for lease expiration's at HP, it's worth noting that they renewed leases on 6 airplanes in 2005. No guarantee that the same would have happened in later years, but just because a lease is expiring doesn't mean the airplane automatically leaves the fleet.

Jim

PS - exaggeration doesn't make your point any more valid. I don't think anyone has said anything about a "mighty AWA fleet". Besides, it makes you sound like Hate.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

A well respected arbitrator all ready did explain it. Of all the mergers that have taken place. How many placed furloughed pilots among active pilots and how many placed furloughed pilot below active pilots? My guess far more of the latter. Kind of the standard way of doing business.

You all might want to read that bold part again. DOH places furloughed pilot next to captains. Not fair or equitable under any criteria. That means there are no C&R that can make that situation fair.

I think his "stated criteria " refers to another unions merger position, one that no longer exists, except maybe for carriers that aren't smart enough to see the light, FRAGMENTATION,