US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Bear96]

No, you are quite wrong. You keep trying to place properties on this that don't exist. Just like bad lawyers tend to do.

I am trying to keep simple what is really a simple issue legally: binding arbitration is binding.

You guys are trying to obfuscate and throw the kitchen sink at it, hoping something - anything! - will stick.

All you have succeeded in doing is creating a multi-million dollar mess which you and others will be paying for for years because you are sore losers.

But the underlying issue remains the same, despite your best efforts.

 

[cactusboy53]

Okay then, live up to your requirement to abide by the USAPA merger policy.

Sorry, we can't. USAPA inherited ALL PORTIONS OF THE PREVIOUS CBA'S CONTRACTS, TENTATIVE AGREEMENTS, ETC. You just can't change the name of an organization and get a free pass. The courts will ultimately finish this. I'm not saying we will win, but I would say the odds are in our favor. See you in court....AGAIN.

 

[cleardirect]

I am trying to keep simple what is really a simple issue legally: binding arbitration is binding.

You guys are trying to obfuscate and throw the kitchen sink at it, hoping something - anything! - will stick.

All you have succeeded in doing is creating a multi-million dollar mess which you and others will be paying for for years because you are sore losers.

But the underlying issue remains the same, despite your best efforts.

Welcome to our frustration. For the last 5 years we have been trying to find some glimmer of understanding from these east guys. They either will not or are incapable of comprehending the obvious.

The big problem is they have a lawyer and a president that keeps telling them what they want to hear dispite all evidence to the contrary. Some people are beyond help.

 

[Pi brat]

Let's define the terms just to be clear. ALPA national did not hire Nicolau. AAA ALPA and AWA ALPA hired Nicolau. That means that the guys that you elected were responsible for the decision. Ultimately the pilots from each group.

As far as if it was fair or not. Our opinion does not matter. We hired him to decide what was fair. It is fair in his opinion.

Arbitration has been explained this way and I think the clearest manner. The two parties in this case the pilots as represented both sign a blank piece of paper the becomes a contract. You make you best case the the arbitrator fills in the blanks. But you agree to the end product before the case begins. You guys tell us that you had all of this experience with mergers. You should have all known that.

Now going into arbitration with your best case. How did that work out? when Nicolau told you that your best case was rubbish most thinking people would then change their case. However now the east thinks that attrition and WB flying is the best case. Should have changed you position then not now. So who is to blame for your MC not changing your position then if they had free reign? How come we never heard you guys taking your MC to task?

Yes ALPA merger policy does almost guarantee arbitration because one side usually decides to stick with a losing position and not move. BTW what does the new Mckaskell/ Bond bill guarantee?

Do not preach to me you. You asked me a question and I answered it, unlike you when I gave you facts and figures to disprove your glorious AWA remembrances.

I know what arbitration means, and I know it produced the Nic award whether I think it is fair or not. For a long time I thought we had to live with it and USAPA was going to lose. Now I'm not so sure and just like you will have to wait the final court verdict.

Did I say ALPA National? Can you please read the whole thing?

Who is to blame for the west MC not changing their stance to something that would avoid arbitration? Wouldn't we all be better right now if we had avoided it? They never came up with ANYTHING remotely resembling fair. There were two parties to this train wreck and the west is not as innocent as they would now claim.

I have no way of knowing if changing our stance would have changed things. Should it have? It had been turned over to St. Nic to decide then, I never really understood why he was asking us in the first place. What huge changes did the west offer?

The way I understand it M/B pretty guarantees what ALPA merger policy did without the guidelines, but I could be wrong. Negotiation, mediation, arbitration. I have never believed, or stated that it quarantees DOH, if that is what you are getting at.

 

[Pi brat]

Well thanks Pi.

I could imagine that Harper, Jacobs, and Co. might indeed send some holiday message to the West via AOL.

Whether to file our lawsuit when we did was a very devisive issue on the West. The problem was when did the statute of limitations clock start? We knew that if we waited to file, usapa surely would claim that SOL had run, so we were on a countdown clock, the case had to be filed.

If Wake would have said not ripe, we would have saved money, but, usapa filed with the 9th before the trial, claiming lack of ripeness, and the 9th allowed the trial to proceed. So, all indications were the case was ready for adjudication. Further, if we had waited, both Wake and Bybee, felt it was ripe, so if a like minded judge would have heard the case at a later date, he or she may very well have dismissed due to SOL.

Also, had the 9th ruled in our favor, a lot of money would have been saved. Now both sides have to spend in the company's DJ.

I understand why you guys felt you had to file, that was just a little friendly reminder that this train wreck has cost us ALL a lot of money. It seems that some only point out the money that Seham is raking in when I doubt the friendly lawyers in PHX are doing it pro bono.

 

[fodase]

Do not preach to me you. You asked me a question and I answered it, unlike you when I gave you facts and figures to disprove your glorious AWA remembrances.

Did I say ALPA National? Can you please read the whole thing?

Who is to blame for the west MC not changing their stance to something that would avoid arbitration? Wouldn't we all be better right now if we had avoided it? They never came up with ANYTHING remotely resembling fair. There were two parties to this train wreck and the west is not as innocent as they would now claim.

I have no way of knowing if changing our stance would have changed things. Should it have? It had been turned over to St. Nic to decide then, I never really understood why he was asking us in the first place. What huge changes did the west offer?

The way I understand it M/B pretty guarantees what ALPA merger policy did without the guidelines, but I could be wrong. Negotiation, mediation, arbitration. I have never believed, or stated that it quarantees DOH, if that is what you are getting at.

Yep, it is the West's fault for not giving you what you wanted.

 

[Pi brat]

Yep, it is the West's fault for not giving you what you wanted.

Glad you get. Stay out of broadcasting if that is all you can come up with.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Did you sign the recall of Crimi the union buster for going to Freedom airlines? Or do you give him a pass on his anti-union behavior?

ActuallY I support USAPA, did he scab?, is his name on a list? if it had been, whether ALPA's or whoever they would certainly would get no pass. Unlike ALPA who has a different policy, scab us then join us! MM!

 

[CV580ETOPS]

Why is it that there has to be accusations of ulterior motives when someone disagrees with the East position?

Jim

Maybe because that's just how they roll.

CV

 

[fodase]

Glad you get. Stay out of broadcasting if that is all you can come up with.

Aren't you saying the west is "partly" to blame? I am just saying that if that's what you need to believe to justify reneging on an agreement then that is up to you. I don't think you need a recap of who did what, you know very well who's to blame, but like most easties your moral beliefs don't jive with your actions in this case so you make things up in your mind to justify your unethical position to yourself.

 

[cleardirect]

ActuallY I support USAPA, did he scab?, is his name on a list? if it had been, whether ALPA's or whoever they would certainly would get no pass. Unlike ALPA who has a different policy, scab us then join us! MM!

You did not say scab. You said

I didn't and never will condone anti-union behavior.

I would say that trying to bust a union while they are negotiating a contract would be anti union behavior. That is the great thing about a web board unlike a conversation. There is proof of exactly what you say. No changing your words.

I asked about Crimi not usapa.

So would you like to try again. Did you sign a recall for Crimi and has anti union behavior or do you condone his going to freedom airline?

 

[CV580ETOPS]

Exactly... You don't have to be a student of human nature to see this coming. Typically, your first instinct is "what's in it for me?" Had the Merger Committee been left alone to do their job, I don't think we would be in this mess and although there is no perfect solution, one close to the middle will usually suffice.

Disclaimer...just my opinion.

Driver B)

BINGO !!!! An eastie that finally gets it. You boys looking for someone to blame ? Try your old C41 reps. They are the ones who told your MEC to push for a DOH intergration or they would replace the members of your Merger Commitee, effectively tying their hands from negotiating anything else. Those are the ones you should hold accountable for where you are today. No one else.


CV580ETOPS

 

[fodase]

BINGO !!!! An eastie that finally gets it. You boys looking for someone to blame ? Try your old C41 reps. They are the ones who told your MEC to push for a DOH intergration or they would replace the members of your Merger Commitee, effectively tying their hands from negotiating anything else. Those are the ones you should hold accountable for where you are today. No one else.


CV580ETOPS

You are actually very wrong, the east rank and file are collectively to blame for this debacle. I can show you petitions signed by the majority of east pilots demanding doh before the arbitration started, their reps were only following the memberships orders.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The problem with your logic is that you and the west pilots seem to feel that the Nicolau abomination is somehow the "gold standard" to which USAPA must strive in any list negotiated with the company. It is not.

As oldie recently told someone, you're welcome to have a different opinion but you're wrong. The 9th clearly said that USAPA could possibly abandon the Nic as long as it didn't do the harm that the west fears. You love to use the "even if it doesn't contain the Nic" part of the sentence to justify doing whatever you want but that's not what the 9th said. Abandon the Nic and you better come close to it with any alternative or you do the harm the west fears. The 9th also said if you don't come close, you face an unquestionably ripe DFR.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Do not preach to me you. You asked me a question and I answered it, unlike you when I gave you facts and figures to disprove your glorious AWA remembrances.

I know what arbitration means, and I know it produced the Nic award whether I think it is fair or not. For a long time I thought we had to live with it and USAPA was going to lose. Now I'm not so sure and just like you will have to wait the final court verdict.

Did I say ALPA National? Can you please read the whole thing?

Who is to blame for the west MC not changing their stance to something that would avoid arbitration? Wouldn't we all be better right now if we had avoided it? They never came up with ANYTHING remotely resembling fair. There were two parties to this train wreck and the west is not as innocent as they would now claim.

I have no way of knowing if changing our stance would have changed things. Should it have? It had been turned over to St. Nic to decide then, I never really understood why he was asking us in the first place. What huge changes did the west offer?

The way I understand it M/B pretty guarantees what ALPA merger policy did without the guidelines, but I could be wrong. Negotiation, mediation, arbitration. I have never believed, or stated that it quarantees DOH, if that is what you are getting at.

I said that I wanted to be clear about which ALPA we were talking about

We did show up to the negotiations with different offers. The east stuck with DOH. When asked how many furloughs we were willing to accept senior to active pilots and we said none. The negotitation portion was over. It was the east that forced arbitration. If the east had accepted the west proposal we could have avoided all of this too. Now you understand why these usually always go to arbitration. Fair in your mind and fair in the west mind is two different things. Thus the third party neutral arbitrator.

Yep M/B=A/M neg/med/arb. I think my question was with pilots there is no other way to do it.

Yes there are 2 parties. Both of us agreed to the process. We both put on our case and took our chances. However after the award only one side had lived up to our deal. That pretty much make the east to blame and the west innocent in this whole thing.

If you want a sence of what the west things of the east pilots. Watch the last crew news. When Parker says that there are rational, intelligent people on both sides of this. The room bursts into laughter. No one over here believes that. You all have walked away from the deal looking to impose your will in the minority. That is what is not fair.