US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

I only know what you write, I can't read your mind. As for the method of seniority integration it sure seems like there are only two options for a judge to choose from - the Nic and USAPA's DOH with slanted C&R's. You've said that you don't think DOH nor the Nic is fair, but those are the choices you have to pick from. All proposals for something in between those two is good idle fantising, but will have no bearing on the outcome and you seem to favor USAPA's proposal over the Nic.



I'll admit that I do get tired of all the BS thrown at me and can't always resist replying in kind. You certainly don't seem to hold back on pointing out what you don't like in posts - am I to be held to a higher standard than you hold yourself?

Jim

ps - still no proof that I'm the King of anything?

You can't read my mind, but over and over again you have stated what I believe. I'm not going back over the posts, we both know they are there-that's what has frustrated me most with you.

You are right that DOH or Nic are the only ones available to us(for now-we never know what's coming), but not to choose. We can choose to support one or another, but the decision will be made for us. When I chime in on what I feel is fair I'm not saying we should do it, that door is closed, I'm saying what I think would have worked better for ALL of us. Just throwing things around and countering what I see as b.s. support for the Nic award just because it favors the poster. I will go to my grave believing that Nicolau did our entire group a terrible disservice.

I do not expect you to be held to a higher standard than I hold myself. This board brings out the worst in most of us sometimes, but if I see things you write that I disagree with, I will say it. Just as you do.

I think a lot thrown at you is unfair. I don't think anyone can lay Empire on you anymore than they can lay the Shuttle integration on me. But Jim you seem to go out of your way to needle the pilots you used to work with and that will bring some anger at you. You are entitled to your opinions, not matter how they were formed, but you seem to go out of your way to anger east people. It seems that 99 out of 100 posts are anti-east.

I asked you what shaped your POV because I'm interested and by your reaction I think I got it right. I have some ideas for TraderJake and 924PS too.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You and your buds are delusional. There is absolutely ZERO chance that the Nic will be the list. That's right, ZERO.

The Nic is DEAD!

ALPA SUX!

Go USAPA! Best money EVER spent!

Thanks for proving my point. You provide no facts, but rather just keep making stuff up with more emphasis this time. Does increasing the decibel level help you to believe a fantasy more readily?

 

[Bear96]

Federal Arbitration act has nothing to do with and in house, internal union procedure with many variables.

It does when those in house, internal union procedures go to arbitration.

Or can you cite the provision of the FAA (or case law) where such disputes are excluded?

 

[sumadarson]

You might want to read the Federal Arbitration Act or google the Steelworkers Trilogy.

The West read the above that you mentioned. Finding nothing there they read the Star Wars Trilogy, then made videos that attacked the messenger, not the message.

America West Pilot produced video

 

[Bear96]

Do you think there would even be a McCaskill-Bond law if TW was merged DOH?

No. Or if something like the ALPA merger policy were followed (since that is essentially what McCaskill-Bond is).

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Thanks for proving my point. You provide no facts, but rather just keep making stuff up with more emphasis this time. Does increasing the decibel level help you to believe a fantasy more readily?

I've presented PLENTY of facts. You and your group just can't comprehend facts. Better to hire lawyers that apparently know NOTHING about labor law and keep filing lawsuit after lawsuit.

You are living in the fantasy world, not I, my friend (not).

 

[nic4us]

I was really asking nic if he was expecting a Thank You note for the west attorneys, but I can have a laugh at our side. I like his sense of humor, sometimes.

Seems to me that filing premature DFR suits is expensive too, and you get to pay both attorneys! Thanks!

A lot of guys out there like that Leonidas name even though he and most of his followers were wiped out.

Well thanks Pi.

I could imagine that Harper, Jacobs, and Co. might indeed send some holiday message to the West via AOL.

Whether to file our lawsuit when we did was a very devisive issue on the West. The problem was when did the statute of limitations clock start? We knew that if we waited to file, usapa surely would claim that SOL had run, so we were on a countdown clock, the case had to be filed.

If Wake would have said not ripe, we would have saved money, but, usapa filed with the 9th before the trial, claiming lack of ripeness, and the 9th allowed the trial to proceed. So, all indications were the case was ready for adjudication. Further, if we had waited, both Wake and Bybee, felt it was ripe, so if a like minded judge would have heard the case at a later date, he or she may very well have dismissed due to SOL.

Also, had the 9th ruled in our favor, a lot of money would have been saved. Now both sides have to spend in the company's DJ.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

No. Or if something like the ALPA merger policy were followed (since that is essentially what McCaskill-Bond is).

Don't you find it at least interesting that indusrtries and labor groups that use some kind of DOH to merge employee lists lust don't have these issues? That should tell you a lot.

 

[cleardirect]

You can't read my mind, but over and over again you have stated what I believe. I'm not going back over the posts, we both know they are there-that's what has frustrated me most with you.

You are right that DOH or Nic are the only ones available to us(for now-we never know what's coming), but not to choose. We can choose to support one or another, but the decision will be made for us. When I chime in on what I feel is fair I'm not saying we should do it, that door is closed, I'm saying what I think would have worked better for ALL of us. Just throwing things around and countering what I see as b.s. support for the Nic award just because it favors the poster. I will go to my grave believing that Nicolau did our entire group a terrible disservice.

I do not expect you to be held to a higher standard than I hold myself. This board brings out the worst in most of us sometimes, but if I see things you write that I disagree with, I will say it. Just as you do.

I think a lot thrown at you is unfair. I don't think anyone can lay Empire on you anymore than they can lay the Shuttle integration on me. But Jim you seem to go out of your way to needle the pilots you used to work with and that will bring some anger at you. You are entitled to your opinions, not matter how they were formed, but you seem to go out of your way to anger east people. It seems that 99 out of 100 posts are anti-east.

I asked you what shaped your POV because I'm interested and by your reaction I think I got it right. I have some ideas for TraderJake and 924PS too.

I will go to my grave believing that Nicolau did our entire group a terrible disservice.

How much blame do you put on the east pilots and your MEC/MC? Did those groups also do this pilot group a disservice by not negotiating or looking for a compromise other than DOH/LOS before the award and not after?

 

[Bear96]

Don't you find it at least interesting that indusrtries and labor groups that use some kind of DOH to merge employee lists lust don't have these issues? That should tell you a lot.

Seniority integrations that go by DOH don't have "issues" and everyone affected by them feels all warm and fuzzy and like one big, happy family afterwards?



Seniority integrations are always messy and some people will always end up feeling cheated afterwards, no matter how they are done.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I've presented PLENTY of facts. You and your group just can't comprehend facts. Better to hire lawyers that apparently know NOTHING about labor law and keep filing lawsuit after lawsuit.

You are living in the fantasy world, not I, my friend (not).

At best all you have presented opinions, not facts. There is no federal court judgment declaring the NIC to be dead, null, void, or any other such definitive statement. The Company hasn’t made any such proclamation either, so what FACTS have you presented PLEANTY of?

Tell you what, why don’t you ask $eham to make a public proclamation based on his own word and reputation that the NIC is unquestionably dead. To back this up he can promise to refund USAPA all monies paid to his firm should the NIC ever be implemented. In other words, is $eham as confident as you are that the NIC is dead? Unless he is more stupid than greedy, he would never make such a proclamation because even he knows the NIC can’t be declared dead until a CBA is ratified with something other than the NIC in section 22.

Until a new CBA is ratified, you just continue to make stuff up and live in a alternate reality hoping and wishing that the NIC would just go away. It hasn't gone away and it isn't dead.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

At best all you have presented opinions, not facts. There is no federal court judgment declaring the NIC to be dead, null, void, or any other such definitive statement. The Company hasn’t made any such proclamation either, so what FACTS have you presented PLEANTY of?

Tell you what, why don’t you ask $eham to make a public proclamation based on his own word and reputation that the NIC is unquestionably dead. To back this up he can promise to refund USAPA all monies paid to his firm should the NIC ever be implemented. In other words, is $eham as confident as you are that the NIC is dead? Unless he is more stupid than greedy, he would never make such a proclamation because even he knows the NIC can’t be declared dead until a CBA is ratified with something other than the NIC in section 22.

Until a new CBA is ratified, you just continue to make stuff up and live in a alternate reality hoping and wishing that the NIC would just go away. It hasn't gone away and it isn't dead.

I will ignore your stupidity. Go attack someone else.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Seniority integrations that go by DOH don't have "issues" and everyone affected by them feels all warm and fuzzy and like one big, happy family afterwards?



Seniority integrations are always messy and some people will always end up feeling cheated afterwards, no matter how they are done.

True enough. But if everyone feels equally cheated, it's been successful. There's no pleasing everybody in any endeavor.

 

[cleardirect]

Don't you find it at least interesting that indusrtries and labor groups that use some kind of DOH to merge employee lists lust don't have these issues? That should tell you a lot.

Do other labor groups have pay differential by seat or equipment? Do gate agents get paid a different rate by the aircraft the board? Do mechanics get more money for working on 330 than a 190?

How about the pilot that decides he wants life style? You can have a pilot with more seniority making less sitting in the right seat and have someone with less seniority making more sitting in the left seat but sitting reserve.

Any other group have than happen?

Apples and oranges comparison what other labor groups do. If you want to do it that way go be a flight attendant or dispatcher. You can have DOH.

Any other pilots group have DOH as a guarantee? I am not talking about ALPA, any other pilot group? That would be a no because of Mckaskell/ Bond. A/M arbitration. Not DOH.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Don't you find it at least interesting that indusrtries and labor groups that use some kind of DOH to merge employee lists lust don't have these issues? That should tell you a lot.

Don't you find it interesting that when two or more parties actually honor their contractual agreements that they don't have these issues either? The fault is not that of the process or the methodology; it has everything to do with people who refuse to accept responsibility for their agreements.