US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

You are a captain now but what was your status in Sept 05, when the acquisition was consummated. My guess is that you weren't and that your relative seniority is within 2% of what it was, most likely more to your advantage.

You are correct, I was a captain before the merger, was a F/O at merger, captain now, on a shrinking airline since 2001. You guys would like to freeze things in 2005, wouldn't you? Glory days..........

Hey, don't you guys have recapture rights that if you had a captain seat you have first right to it again if displaced? Sounds good to me! B)

 

[LSS]

You should have quit. It's not like there wasn't ample warning that us air was not a safe place to trust your career. Too bad you chose to stay. You're problem. Not the fault of pilots of a different airline on the opposite side of the country.

Ratification is a meaningless, useless detail. It has no bearing on legalities and USAPA'S total failure to represent the West.

Don't attempt to lecture me... 30 years in... 25 as a captain... yet ... 300 Westies were placed above me on your beloved NIC list...

As has been said before... airline fortunes rise and fall... more often than not due to lousy management... sometimes due to exterior pressures... but the fact remains... you can yell, kick, scream and call us dishonorable all you wish... but you will NEVER convince us that what has happened with the NIC abomination is anything any East pilot should accept without a fight... You should be thanking our junior pilots for keeping the U POS alive so you'd have someone to merge with, as without us... your fate could have been the street as well! THE COURTS WILL DECIDE THIS MATTER...

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hey, don't you guys have recapture rights that if you had a captain seat you have first right to it again if displaced? Sounds good to me! B)

How about using the Nic and giving the East pilots those recapture rights to a captain seat "in most cases" (as USAPA put it) if displaced in CLT/DCA/PHL? Let's also pick a snapshot for the protected East positions when the number of East captains was about the least (as USAPA did). Sound as good to you?

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

How about using the Nic and giving the East pilots those recapture rights to a captain seat "in most cases" (as USAPA put it) if displaced in CLT/DCA/PHL? Let's also pick a snapshot for the protected East positions when the number of East captains was about the least (as USAPA did). Sound as good to you?

Jim

Heck no! I've adopted a west POV, I want it all and I want it all now! 😀

 

[N924PS]

Don't attempt to lecture me... 30 years in... 25 as a captain... yet ... 300 Westies were placed above me on your beloved NIC list...

Two questions:

What was your relative seniority on the 2005 USAirways (snapshot) list?

What was your relative seniority on the Nicolau list?

It's not OK for you to "lose" 300 numbers, but it's perfectly acceptable for the Number 1 Cactus pilot to become #701 on your precious DOH list.

That's just wrong.

 

[Pi brat]

Two questions:

What was your relative seniority on the 2005 USAirways (snapshot) list?

What was your relative seniority on the Nicolau list?

It's not OK for you to "lose" 300 numbers, but it's perfectly acceptable for the Number 1 Cactus pilot to become #701 on your precious DOH list.

That's just wrong.

I think it was flat out wrong for the #1 west pilot to go to #518 under Nic and have his entire base opened up to any of those 517 that wanted to come in on top of him. How about you? How precious was that DOH list to you with the US/PS merger? How about US/PI? :angry:

 

[hp_fa]

Pilot to pilot. They wear a special lanyard and kind of have the inside scoop so pilots that see them on the line ask questions and pass on ideas.

Thank you.

 

[N924PS]

I think it was flat out wrong for the #1 west pilot to go to #518 under Nic and have his entire base opened up to any of those 517 that wanted to come in on top of him. How about you? How precious was that DOH list to you with the US/PS merger? How about US/PI? :angry:

I agree. Nicolau should have been uniform in his application of ratios from the top down.

If you will review previous posts of mine, you will find that my PSA seniority bought me the same job I could have held pre-merger. That was senior F/O or junior Captain.

That will NOT be the case for the West pilots under a DOH seniority list even with USAPA crafted conditions and restrictions.

You forget that the PSA/US/PI mergers were over 20 years ago. ALPA merger policy was changed and the demographic of the East pilot group changed forever with USAirways rapid decline.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Heck no!

For some reason I'm not surprised..."fair" depends on who it applies to I guess.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

I agree. Nicolau should have been uniform in his application of ratios from the top down.

If you will review previous posts of mine, you will find that my PSA seniority bought me the same job I could have held pre-merger. That was senior F/O or junior Captain.

That will NOT be the case for the West pilots under a DOH seniority list even with USAPA crafted conditions and restrictions.

You forget that the PSA/US/PI mergers were over 20 years ago. ALPA merger policy was changed and the demographic of the East pilot group changed forever with USAirways rapid decline.

Yeah, bottom C/O or top F/O. Was that bottom BAE 146 C/O to Bottom 73/Dc-9/MD-80 C/O? What was that pay difference? I really can't remember and maybe I'm wrong. How about after the west coast bases closed and for years you occupied the C/O seat some us might have had? The demographics changed forever? It did change for a LONG time since all we had left of PSA was some very senior pilots, intergrated by DOH. How did I get my C/O seat back on a shrinking airline then? Here's a clue, some didn't stay to 60 and beyond, that would be attrition. But hey, if it shortens your commute, by all means.

 

[Pi brat]

For some reason I'm not surprised..."fair" depends on who it applies to I guess.

Jim

Ol Jimbo, glad I didn't surprise you. If they had made me King of the Seniority list I can guarantee I would have come up with something much more fair than either Nic or straight DOH, but they didn't , and I have learned that there is no middle ground to be had so might as well ride it until it dies.............

BTW, you and PS seem to agree about the Nic award. How did you feel when all those PSA guys were coming into CLT under DOH?

 

[N924PS]

Yeah, bottom C/O or top F/O. Was that bottom BAE 146 C/O to Bottom 73/Dc-9/MD-80 C/O? What was that pay difference? I really can't remember and maybe I'm wrong. How about after the west coast bases closed and for years you occupied the C/O seat some us might have had? The demographics changed forever? It did change for a LONG time since all we had left of PSA was some very senior pilots, intergrated by DOH. How did I get my C/O seat back on a shrinking airline then? Here's a clue, some didn't stay to 60 and beyond, that would be attrition. But hey, if it shortens your commute, by all means.

It was bottom B737 on both coasts FYI.

You are right, we did get a nice pay raise because ALPA insisted on pay parity.

Under the same scenarion, if PHX were to close, under a DOH list, most West Captains couldn't hold the same seat back East. Many being junior to pilots that were unemployed prior to the merger.

PI-This isn't about commuting. It's about whats fair and equitable to BOTH sides, and apparently the courts will be the final arbiter.

 

[luvthe9]

Your beloved USAPA and all the east pilots voted to do away with the west's Age 58 bypass when it had nothing to do with them. Tell me again who is screwing pilots with respect to age 60-65 issues? USAPA took the brass ring out the hand of age 60 pilots to sit at the top of the F/O bidding list and make captain pay for 5 years (99 hours versus the 78 or so they might make as a reserve CA [roughly $50000 all totaled]). And what did they get in return for it:




That's right, nothing.

Oh poor son, you are so mis-informed just keep on following the Rev. Jim Jones. The truth will set you free.

 

[Pi brat]

It was bottom B737 on both coasts FYI.

You are right, we did get a nice pay raise because ALPA insisted on pay parity.

Under the same scenarion, if PHX were to close, under a DOH list, most West Captains couldn't hold the same seat back East. Many being junior to pilots that were unemployed prior to the merger.

PI-This isn't about commuting. It's about whats fair and equitable to BOTH sides, and apparently the courts will be the final arbiter.

Okay, I will take your word for it. Actually, there are some C&Rs that would allow phx captains to hold captain in the east. It's just hard for me to see a PSA pilot with that POV after all the years you sat in the east seat.

Pay parity should have been a cost of this merger too, but now the west pilots get to pay for it too.

 

[BoeingBoy]

BTW, you and PS seem to agree about the Nic award. How did you feel when all those PSA guys were coming into CLT under DOH?

Have you forgotten what I've maintained all along? I think relative position, with minimum C&R's primarily for fleet differences, is the fair way to do it. The day after the merger everybody has the seniority to hold what they did the day before the merger. In other words Nic got it basically right while Kagel gave the "North" the benefits of the rapid "South" growth and saddled the "South" with the disadvantage of the sluggish "North" growth. And look at all the C&R's Kagel put in attempting to even things up, with really only one of them doing the "South" any good thanks largely to imaginative interpretation by the "North" merger committee and company acting in unison.

Jim