US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

You didn't give up anything for this merger. You gave it up for AAA. The airline you invested in is gone and so is the money you gave up.

 

[mrbreeze]

You didn't give up anything for this merger. You gave it up for AAA. The airline you invested in is gone and so is the money you gave up.

And what did a desk jocky like you give up for this merger, Move?

Simple question....can you answer it? No

If my airline is gone....why did it take Team Tempe almost 10 yrs to extract that amount of money from me? Why are the profits being extracted from the East operation?

My airline never left.....just different management after the merger.

You will never get it if you don't open your eyes.

Tell me...Move2 CLT....what did you donate to this merger? I want an answer.

breeze

 

[nic4us]

You had your your chance at Wye River, you screwed up.

East pilots acted.

Make a noise like a toilet flushing and click here.

Well hindsight is 20/20...but you are right we missed our chance at Wye River. What we should have done was had attorneys go in our stead to give Prater, Rice and the rest of the scumbags at ALPA a subpeona to give deposition regarding their roles in ALPA's blatant DFR toward the AWA pilot group.

At the first ALPA request to even listen to the Rice committee, the West should have told Prater to go f' himself, and Rice, and demanded the list be immediately given to the company for acceptance.

But, since we missed that opportunity, the West will just have to not make the same mistake twice, and sue the association that inherited ALL of ALPA's contracts for any attempt of modifying that same list.



"East pilots acted"???? What the hell is that supposed to mean. You acted like a bunch whinning scumbag, malcontents, not worthy of a response....so mine ends there.

 

[nic4us]

That's right, still the "easts" airline isn't it? Tell you what let's see what legal theory Seham will come up with on the DJ shall we? Oh that's right your withholding his money and fired him as general counsel yet he still represents you on the DJ, I'm sure is very motivated to give you scabs a win. 🙄

These idiots still have no clue.

Well, you can lead a horse to water, but that won't stop it from trying to steal the apples in your saddle bag.

Disclaimer:

I am not trying to say usapa is like a horse. If I were to compare usapa to anything equestrian, it would be to what a horse leaves behind and guys dressed like clowns sweep into trash cans as the parade goes down the street. Only, that would be to generous, because horse sh1t is at least useful as fertilizer.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Lakefield did the East pilots a big injustice with his statement about liquidation. The truth is that the merger was in the works for many months before it was actually announced.....no liquidation was going to happen......Retirement Systems of Alabama made sure of that when they brought Lakefield, a money manager for Meryl Lynch, out of retirement to line up outside financing for this merger to happen. That was the ONLY reason Lakefield was ever in the game.

Quite a fantasy. If you'd care to back any of it up with facts I'd be happpy to read them.

The East pilots invested $9 billion to ensure that their jobs would be there in the next month....and now, in 2011, are still there....making the profit for this airline. Liqudate, my butt!

Well, you get points for one thing - east pilots voted for the LOA's during the two bankruptcies in an effort to keep their jobs. It's just a shame that all those concessions weren't enough to do that. The merger is what allowed you to continue having a job, and the expectations that you have now grown so accustomed to that they'
re carved in stone for you. The expectations that you demand be fulfilled no matter what price the west pilots pay wouldn't exist without the merger.

Yes, protecting my position, that I have paid for with LOA93 for almost a decade!

And that's one of your biggest errors - you've "paid" for nothing in this merger. You've come to work under the contract the east pilots agreed to, nothing more. Yet you claim some big prize is due you for just doing your job under the terms and conditions you agreed to. I guess it's a good thing you're on LOA 93 - if you were getting LOA 84 pay, or God forbid parity +1%, you'd be demanding to be an A380 captain...

In early 2005 you and the rest of the easties were facing not having a job. Along came the merger and so far LCC is still in business. All I hear from the majority of easties is "gimme, gimme, gimme" at the expense of the westies.

Jim

 

[fodase]

I am not a big fan of politics....attorneys, etc.....lets talk about what we brought to the table.

At the beginning of LOA 93, I gave up 18% of my wages to keep my job. At the time, I was making $121,500/yr (which was down from $144k due to the first BK)......after an 18%cut, that leaves me with the $103k that I am at now......a difference of $18k/yr.

(actually, I was an F100 Capt making $180k/yr before 9/11, but I want to keep this on the FO perspective, since that is where the LOA93 takes its toll)

What is $18k/yr X 10yrs? $180k Stay with me.....I know its tough.

$180k to keep my job.

What did you personally give up for this merger? Anything? Crew meals? surely we can think of something........did you give up one soft drink each week to help out? Anything?

breeze

And who did you give that to and what do the west pilots have to do with it? You clown scab gave that to the old usairways which ceased to exist when the merger happened. To give you an example I brought a 757 captain seat date of merger with only 7 years on property, of course you scabs don't want to ackowledge that nor the other 140 ac the west brought. You will not win you dirty clown scab, you will live with the cesspool that is loa 93 until the day you retire.

 

[700UW]

Lakefield did the East pilots a big injustice with his statement about liquidation. The truth is that the merger was in the works for many months before it was actually announced.....no liquidation was going to happen......Retirement Systems of Alabama made sure of that when they brought Lakefield, a money manager for Meryl Lynch, out of retirement to line up outside financing for this merger to happen. That was the ONLY reason Lakefield was ever in the game.

The East pilots invested $9 billion to ensure that their jobs would be there in the next month....and now, in 2011, are still there....making the profit for this airline. Liqudate, my butt!

Yes, protecting my position, that I have paid for with LOA93 for almost a decade!

breeze

Lakefield was retired from Shearson-Lehman, American Express, not Meryl Lynch.

 

[A320 Driver]

The Piedmont USAir merger was DOH, but much more fair since the hire dates were more matched up than any other merger in history. I remember losing about 300 numbers out of around 5000 pilots since I was Piedmont, but that is a hell of a lot different that losing 1200 numbers with the AWA merger. Apples and Oranges.
breeze

Boy, you faired better than I did. I went back 1641 numbers and 23%... and I was a blockholding B727 Captain. And after USAir shuffled the time around the bases to neutralize the conditions and restrictions, I was barely able to hold 737 Reserve Captain in my own domicile.

I think this is what is feared most about straight DOH. No matter what conditions and restrictions are put on it, there is always some way around them. I mean, what PSA Captain had widebodies in his career expectations? But in no time they held a good number of the Captain positions on former Piedmont 767s. USAir even went so far at one point as to cancel an order for Piedmont 767s and re-order them. It took them out of play for the Kagel C & Rs. I can't prove that is why it was done, but that was the result. I think many of the West pilots fear losing what they have. I understand it because I lived it. Many of the USAir pilots placed senior to me had never held a Captain position.

The AAA merger committee had a reasonable plan. I saw it, looked at the charts and graphs and asked many questions about it. All the work they put into it and then were not allowed to use it. It was the closest thing to middle ground I can think of. The NIC is not an answer, but it might get shoved down our throats by the courts. Straight DOH isn't really an answer either, IMO.

I'm just saying...it's a matter of perspective.

Driver B)

 

[A320 Driver]

Quite a fantasy. If you'd care to back any of it up with facts I'd be happpy to read them.
Jim

I was there when senior USAirways management explained that they had two paths out of the second bankruptcy. AWA was one of them. The problem was, once a path was chosen, there was no going back and they considered AWA the better path. I was there in person. If it is a lie, they told it.

Driver B)

 

[767jetz]

um remember both might have been gone without the mergers....

Um... no both MIGHT not have been gone.

One DEFINITELY was gone in a matter of weeks, if not days. (Fact. No money, No time, No payroll, No hard assets to sell, No more furniture to burn.)

The other MIGHT have been gone at some later point down the road. (Speculation. Turn in the economy, Rise of traffic due to a US CH7, another merger with someone else, Maybe even a trip through CH11 to downsize and reorganize. But far from a certainty.)

AWA had one thing US did not... time.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Boy, you faired better than I did. I went back 1641 numbers and 23%... and I was a blockholding B727 Captain.

Breeze didn't, he just claims he did to support his argument. If he only lost 300 positions, he retired at least 10 years ago and more like 15-20. I would give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was a typo and he meant 3000, but there weren't that many US/PSA pilots total.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

I was there when senior USAirways management...

Note breeze's comments I quoted. He has nothing to back those up because they're untrue.

Until Jan 2005 US pursued one path but as the cash dwindled management was forced to abandon that and pursue another. The original plan was to emerge from BK as a stand-alone low cost carrier, but after a few months of watching the cash balance dwindle they realized that there wasn't the money necessary to buy the time to make that conversion. That's when everything changed and the effort began to find a merger partner. AWH was the only party to eventually say "Yes". It's all in the BK filings and media reports - the original plan to get costs down and become a low cost carrier, then the hunt for a merger partner, and finally the merger with AWH as the "only viable option".

Jim

 

[Hate2fly]

Compass Correction Coalition Update: October 12, 2011

The New Logbook

Fellow Pilots,

For those of you who have read the preliminary injunction handed down by Judge Conrad of the Federal Court in North Carolina, a point of contention with at least one of his orders should be obvious to all federally licensed Airline Transport Pilots.

Judge Conrad apparently orders us to stop “writing up all maintenance items” which is in direct violation of FAR 121.563.

The following is from Judge Conrad’s order:

Page 43

"Including in such notice a directive from USAPA to US Airways’s pilots who are engaging in a concerted refusal to perform normal pilot operations, including but not limited to, slow taxiing, writing up all maintenance items, calling in fatigued, delaying flights, refusing to answer a call from the scheduling, refusing to fly an aircraft that meets the requirements for flight, or refusing to accept voluntary or overtime flying, to cease and desist all such activity and to cease and desist all exhortations or communications encouraging same."

Some of the confusion may have been cause by Lyle Hogg’s testimony that possibly misled Judge Conrad as to the difference between a deferred maintenance item approved by the MEL and that of a reportable mechanical discrepancy.

Page 14

"While there is no prohibition against writing up any and all maintenance items, including very minor items (e.g., broken passenger light, a non-essential placard), pilots ordinarily exercise their authority and discretion to not write up deferrable minor items when it could produce a delay or cancellation of a flight. Pl’s Ex. 30 at ¶ 7: Hogg Decl. In a slowdown, discretion can be exercised as a pretext for creating flight delays and cancellations when pilots reject aircraft even though they have no genuine safety concerns. Id."

Page 15

"Notably, the rate at which East pilots are increasing their use of maintenance write-ups is far greater at airports where US Airways does not have its own maintenance personnel, thus making such write-ups much more likely to result in a flight delay or cancellation because the Company needs to rely on third party maintenance or even fly in a mechanic or part before the flight can depart. Id. At ¶ 16."

A review of the pertinent FAR’s follows:

Sec. 121.563

Reporting mechanical irregularities.

The pilot in command shall ensure that all mechanical irregularities occurring during flight time are entered in the maintenance log of the airplane at the end of that flight time. Before each flight the pilot in command shall ascertain the status of each irregularity entered in the log at the end of the preceding flight.

Sec. 91.7

Civil aircraft airworthiness.

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.

(B) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.

A careful reading of the FARs and a abundance of case history involving enforcement action against Pilots who carry maintenance items should have our Union's attorneys (who ever they are this week!) seeking clarification on this conflict.

While we believe our Union and each Pilot need to comply with the Court order, an interpretation could be that this order allows Pilots to carry a maintenance discrepancy, to a convenient maintenance station; this of course, is not the case, per the Federal Air Regulations.

A letter to the FAA Deputy Chief Counsel should have been drafted by USAPA and sent seeking the FAA’s opinion as to Judge Conrad’s mandate. In addition, communication and coordination with US Airways Flight and Training Department on guidance from US Airways on their interpretation of the FAR 121.563 and Judge Conrad’s order.

But as of yet, silence.

It appears management was looking for a fly swatter but instead received a hammer from the Court. What a fine mess Cleary and the boys have gotten us into!

Fraternally,

Dave Ciabattoni
AB 320 PHL

Eric Rowe
AB 330 PHL

Woody Menear
B-767 PHL

You can also visit the Compass Correction website using the following link: http://compasscorrectioncoalition.com

More information on FAR 121.563 follows:

See also Administrator v. Schoppaul, NTSB Order EA-3410 at 10 (1991), in which we held that an airman having "even a 'small worry'" about the functioning of an aircraft component is required to enter that item in the maintenance logbook under § 121.563.

***************************************************

May 2001

Central Air Safety Enhancing Our Mechanical Quality and Reliability

Terry McVenes (PHL)

Chairman, Central Air Safety Committee

I get a fair number of telephone calls that concern the maintenance condition of a certain airplane or fleet type. While I am sometimes able to verify and resolve a problem, I often find that there is no supporting documentation to validate the claim. In other words, the mechanical discrepancy was never written up in the logbook.

The desire to be good employees who get our passengers to their destination on time encourages us to try to get an airplane through the day without a write-up. However, "carrying" an airplane with a mechanical discrepancy benefits neither you, your fellow pilots, nor the Company. Not only can it be an unsafe practice, you could find yourself facing a potential FAA violation.

Federal Air Regulation 121.563 states: The pilot in command shall ensure that all mechanical irregularities occurring during flight time are entered in the maintenance log of the airplane at the end of that flight time. Before each flight the pilot in command shall ascertain the status of each irregularity entered in the log at the end of the preceding flight.

Recently, an airline pilot (not from US Airways) had his pilot certificate suspended for violating this FAR. In this particular case, the airman flew a series of flights with a thrust reverser accumulator discrepancy that he did not write up until he returned to his home base. In issuing the suspension of this pilot's license, the law judge made the assumption that

The term "mechanical irregularity," as stated in FAR 121.563, includes any deviation from the normal functioning of an aircraft component, no matter how slight or momentary.

Aside from the potential FAR violation, it is important to remember that the only way to get a mechanical discrepancy repaired is to write it up. While it may be temporarily placed on the MEL, which I know at times can be frustrating, it will eventually get fixed. When you do write it up, be as clear and concise as possible, so that maintenance personnel can adequately troubleshoot the discrepancy and make the appropriate repairs. The depth and quality of the write-up goes a long way toward expediting the repair and ensuring the proper solution to the discrepancy.

Occasionally, you may notice an airplane that has a history of mechanical irregularities. The Maintenance Department refers to these as "chronic airplanes" and has developed a Chronic Airplane Program to address these troublesome airplanes. Recently, Maintenance has increased its focus on this Chronic Airplane Program, and is putting a high priority on getting these airplanes fixed. Again, we can help Maintenance by paying close attention to these airplanes and reporting valuable information to Maintenance via the aircraft logbook.

As pilots, we can play a significant role in helping to maintain the quality of the aircraft we operate. While "carrying" an airplane may provide a short-term remedy, it is not indicative of prudent safe operating practices. Besides subjecting you to possible FAA sanctions, it reduces the Maintenance Department's ability to provide better long-term corrective measures to enhance the mechanical reliability of our fleet.

*************************************************

DAVID R. HINSON,

Administrator,

Federal Aviation Administration,

Complainant,

v.

GARY R. CALHOUN,

Respondent.

Docket SE-10955



OPINION AND ORDER

Respondent has appealed from the oral initial decision of Administrative Law Judge William R. Fowler, Jr., issued on December 3, 1991, following an evidentiary hearing.1 The law judge affirmed an order of the Administrator suspending respondent's airline transport pilot certificate for 30 days for violating 14 C.F.R. 121.563.2 We deny the appeal.

The Administrator charged that respondent, as pilot in command, had, over a few days, listed numerous "mechanical irregularities" (as the term is used in § 121.563) on hotel note paper, rather than timely entering them in the aircraft log.3 In other instances where entries were made, respondent is alleged to have delayed entering the discrepancies in the log. The law judge made summary findings that respondent's notes reflected mechanical irregularities, not all of which were logged as required.4

...

The issues were clear: was respondent obliged to enter all of the listed items in the aircraft log; did he fail to do so; and did he fail to do so within the time the rule requires? The testimony at the hearing, as well as case law obviously known to the law judge (see Tr. at 178), was straightforward and, accordingly, the law judge saw no need to belabor the matter. Id. at 176-177. This approach was not an abuse of discretion, especially because, as the Administrator points out, proof of failure to enter just one of the items would satisfy the complaint.

...

Having broken equipment repaired as a result of a pilot's communicating concerns to maintenance personnel does not preclude the finding of a § 121.563 violation, nor does a determination that the aircraft was not rendered unairworthy as a result of the irregularity. The rule requires only a finding that a mechanical irregularity has not been timely logged.

As to the timeliness of the log entry, to the extent that entries may have been made, yet made after the flights on which the problems were noticed, the Administrator argues that the current rule corrected the problem noted in Leighton, and now requires that entries be made at the end of the flight time in which the irregularity was noticed. The record supports a finding that entries were not made after relevant flight times, and respondent has not demonstrated, as was done by the respondent in Leighton, that the intervening time did not compromise safe operation so as to mitigate the sanction. Here, for example, there is no showing that other crews could not have used the aircraft.7 See also Administrator v. Lambert, NTSB

Order EA-3852 (1993).

ACCORDINGLY, IT IS ORDERED THAT:

1. Respondent's appeal is denied;

2. The 30-day suspension of respondent's airline transport pilot certificate shall begin 30 days from the date of service of this order.

CM,

I was at the PHL meeting on the 11th and didn't see any of the three authors above there. They were probably having a compass swing performed.

Hate

 

[Zone5]

We agreed to a seniority arbitration process and the result of that process is basically the same as the Shuttle, Delta Northwest, and Republic Frontier arbitrations.

Four times in a row arbitrators determined that slotting by equipment and status is the fair way to merge pilot seniority lists and DOH is not.

The West brought 140 airplanes to the merger and it's not fair to make an East Reserve First Officer senior to the West Captains flying those airplanes.

DOH wasn't fair during the Piedmont USAir merger and it's not fair now.

Was it "fair" in the PSA merger?

seajay

 

[Piedmont1984]

As Chester A. Riley said on many occasions, "What a revolting development this is".

By my count, looking out over the battlefield, we have split into at least six factions.

1. The Iron Compass faction, now holed up at HQ which more and more resembles the Alamo, or a particular and infamous WWII undeground bunker.

2. The Compass Correction group. Quick to point out the failures and shortcomings of faction 1, and rightly so.

3. The USAPA founding group, affectionately referred to as the Boys in the Van.

4. ALPA loyalists who wish to see and may even now be actively working to bring us back to the Mother Ship.

5. The AOL group which exerts considerable influence over the PHX domicile and would probably like to see, unlike the first three factions, the baby thrown out with the bath water.

6. And finally, the rest who have given up, stopped voting, are approaching retirement or just don't care, etc.

Notes:

Faction 2 and 3 may be in close cooperation and for all intents and purposes could be regarded as one faction.

Faction 2 and 3 may assemble a coalition to run against faction 1 in the spring elections.

Faction 5 may do the same.

Faction 1 may attempt to preempt spring elections by starting an IBT card drive, depending on LOA93, but this is unlikely to succeed due to the timeline required for a card drive/representational election. Spring elections will be the first order of business.

If voter turnout is poor, as it was in CLT, a card drive is the next order of business, depending on LOA93.

Any new bargaining agent will be a temporary custodian if a corporate merger is in our future. (who would provide us with the best merger counsel?)

Did I mention LOA93 was important? Arbitrator Kasher is not being asked to incorporate dark energy into some unification theory of the universe. He hasn't done us any favors thus far. Enough already, how about a decision.

Question:

What is more important in the scheme of things and within the context of our remaining careers, having come this far for this long, with yet another merger possible - money and benefits - or a pecking order and a fourth stripe?