US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

So reality is sinking in. After WEEKS of gloating about no profit sharing for the west, or screwing them as much as possible in favor of the AFO club to make up for their crappy existence, you are finally conceding that the west "have to get it." Great! Now... anyone else care to man up admit they were wrong through weeks of BS? oldie? nostradamus? Hate? Luvthe9? Anyone?


So what happens when there is eventually another "legal discussion" after more court activity unfolds, and USAPA says the west "has to get" the nic? Will there be another meltdown and another union elected? What about the "legal discussion" that determines that there is no way out of LOA93 and the TA outside of a joint contract? Will USAPA lose support from those wanting a raise before they retire? I'm not saying it will happen, only that it could. It is well within the realm of possibilities. Many on this board who speak in absolutes are actually living in denial of what could happen. Just as they were told of the very real possibility that the west would either get profit sharing or USAPA would be in serious hot water. The same talking heads pounded their chests and told us all how it was going to go down. They were wrong.

As for your question about damages, it has always been the case that if USAPA treads carefully then there is no damage. Even the 9th said so. Don't harm the west as they fear and you are off the hook. Profit sharing is the first example of USAPA accepting reality. However, at some point there are those who can (and probably will) claim that all the delay was not to negotiate a good contract, but specifically to take advantage of all movement and all growth. If it can be proven that the delay was intentional and negotiations have not been in good faith, that again could be a failure of DFR, which could be said to have caused harm. This is the minefield that USAPA has put itself in a position to have to navigate.


Careful with talk like that. Any evidence that the east majority is going to intentionally "hurt" the west when it suits your needs is food for a failure of DFR. In fact it contradicts what you said earlier in this post about USAPA being careful.

Not reality sinking in. We were all well aware this was in the T/A, so it will be paid to avoid the DFR. Believe me, there was every intention NOT to pay them if could have been pulled off. But in reality, it will just help us win our case when the time comes. Jetzz you just don't really understand that USAPA knows EXACTLY what they are obligated to do, and what they are not. A contract with the Nic, is NOT a requirement. You will NOT see it. As far as a West DFR? We are all well aware that will come with ANY contract. But they have a big a nasty skeleton hanging in their closet that will come out when they try......... So far, the East has done ALL the correct steps with regard to DFR. Happy Holidays!

 

[Black Swan]

YOU GAVE US profit sharing and WE STIFFED YOU on parity???? Can you really be this stupid? No seriously can you????? Profit sharing with the new carrier LCC was a product contained within the transition agreement. Thats that same agemmement that you wish to pick and choose which parts you willl honor and which you wont. The west pilots dont cut the checks thus we have no way at all of stiffing anyone on parity so your statement was one of absolute stupidity. I am also happy that you make the statement that "you want to hurt us" as bringing harm to the minority for the benefit of the majority is a law suit waiting for a jury! If you could do the things to the west pilots that you wanted to do why have they not yet been done??? Because you cant and stalling is your only game and that will run out in 2011.

AWA320

You REALLY don't know what you are talking about. And it shows.

 

[Black Swan]

So reality is sinking in. After WEEKS of gloating about no profit sharing for the west, or screwing them as much as possible in favor of the AFO club to make up for their crappy existence, you are finally conceding that the west "have to get it." Great! Now... anyone else care to man up admit they were wrong through weeks of BS? oldie? nostradamus? Hate? Luvthe9? Anyone?


So what happens when there is eventually another "legal discussion" after more court activity unfolds, and USAPA says the west "has to get" the nic? Will there be another meltdown and another union elected? What about the "legal discussion" that determines that there is no way out of LOA93 and the TA outside of a joint contract? Will USAPA lose support from those wanting a raise before they retire? I'm not saying it will happen, only that it could. It is well within the realm of possibilities. Many on this board who speak in absolutes are actually living in denial of what could happen. Just as they were told of the very real possibility that the west would either get profit sharing or USAPA would be in serious hot water. The same talking heads pounded their chests and told us all how it was going to go down. They were wrong.

As for your question about damages, it has always been the case that if USAPA treads carefully then there is no damage. Even the 9th said so. Don't harm the west as they fear and you are off the hook. Profit sharing is the first example of USAPA accepting reality. However, at some point there are those who can (and probably will) claim that all the delay was not to negotiate a good contract, but specifically to take advantage of all movement and all growth. If it can be proven that the delay was intentional and negotiations have not been in good faith, that again could be a failure of DFR, which could be said to have caused harm. This is the minefield that USAPA has put itself in a position to have to navigate.


Careful with talk like that. Any evidence that the east majority is going to intentionally "hurt" the west when it suits your needs is food for a failure of DFR. In fact it contradicts what you said earlier in this post about USAPA being careful.

HURT, as in ADDINGTON, ie BLOWN AWAY, DEMOLISHED, ERASED. That is some hurt that was laid on! Or shall we be nice and say SPANKED? 😀

 

[AWA320]

We all know what happened: from August 15, 2007, until the decertification of ALPA on April 18, 2008, there were no further negotiations toward a single CBA. Even US Airways President Scott Kirby recognized that ALPA's Nicolau-generated impasse had stalled bargaining since "May of 2007," and he specifically commented to investors in April 2008 that the change from ALPA to USAPA was "a good thing" because it meant the Company was finally "able to get back to talking to [its] pilots and having formal negotiations with them." The fact is that contract negotiations only resumed with USAPA. It is only with USAPA that the 8-month negotiating freeze was finally overcome. It was only with USAPA that a federally-appointed mediator now supervises negotiations. It is only with USAPA that a single ratification pool now prevents the eternal gridlock that was experienced under ALPA

Whats interesting here is the huge part you left out. THE EAST WAS THE CAUSE OF NO NEGOTIATIONS!!! It was the east that pulled out not the west as we were willing hell begging to get back to the table while the east was trying to figure out a way to steal!!! So dont blame this mess on us it was all you! Now we at a point where no one ever wanted to be not even the courts and that is in court with union crap.

AWA320

 

[Black Swan]

Help me out here guys. Is the above quote more:

A. Cowardly
B. Pathetic
C. Delusional
D. All of the above.

I can't decide.

Here is something to make it clearer METRO, how about SPANKED? Just like the Desert Judge and Addington. Does that make it clear in what venue the hurtin shall take place?

 

[AWA320]

🙄

Yes, it sums up your amazing proficiency at cutting & pasting, and posting links to, endless irrelevant material over and over again.

Very nice work Bear Kudos my friend kudos indeed. 😀 😀

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Whats interesting here is the huge part you left out. THE EAST WAS THE CAUSE OF NO NEGOTIATIONS!!! It was the east that pulled out not the west as we were willing hell begging to get back to the table while the east was trying to figure out a way to steal!!! So dont blame this mess on us it was all you! Now we at a point where no one ever wanted to be not even the courts and that is in court with union crap.

AWA320

In May 2007, the Company presented the JNC with a comprehensive proposal. You may have heard of it -- the Kirby Proposal. As you may recall from previous NAC updates, the Kirby Proposal is essentially the West agreement with an illusory 3% pay increase. We say this because in aggregate the proposal represented an overall reduction in value for former America West pilots. That's right, back in May of 2007, after two years of negotiating, the Company had not moved off of their opening position by one dime. Does that sound strikingly familiar! MM!

 

[AWA320]

This is not just changing the name, as you are well aware. There was an election. The former bargaining and representative unit was REMOVED. A NEW one put in. The latter is not beholden to the former. To do so would perpetuate the former.

Ok let me give you that, it was an election. An election held by the majority to avoid having to honor their obligations under binding arbitration and bring certain harm to the minority. The contract is beholden which is why today there are TWO SEPERATE CONTRACTS and the west is not under loa 93 with you.

There is no way you can fool a court of the intent of usapa creation. Just keep on wishing and maybe even click your heels together and say there's no place like home cause you are certainly in OZ now.

AWA320

 

[sumadarson]

Whats interesting here is the huge part you left out. THE EAST WAS THE CAUSE OF NO NEGOTIATIONS!!! It was the east that pulled out not the west as we were willing hell begging to get back to the table while the east was trying to figure out a way to steal!!! So dont blame this mess on us it was all you! Now we at a point where no one ever wanted to be not even the courts and that is in court with union crap.

AWA320

This is why the East walked away.

""MR. KATZ:we don't have a modification of our proposal in any respect

AWA320

This attitude, that is a common denominator of all the west pilots, cost the west side almost 200 furloughs, captains back to the right seat, and any chance of the nic to succeed. Kirby and Parker have told you in the last few meetings that you let any chance of compromise go away a long time ago. You did it to yourself.

Cry me a Wye River angry just returned from furlough f/o.

 

[AWA320]

In May 2007, the Company presented the JNC with a comprehensive proposal. You may have heard of it -- the Kirby Proposal. As you may recall from previous NAC updates, the Kirby Proposal is essentially the West agreement with an illusory 3% pay increase. We say this because in aggregate the proposal represented an overall reduction in value for former America West pilots. That's right, back in May of 2007, after two years of negotiating, the Company had not moved off of their opening position by one dime. Does that sound strikingly familiar! MM!

Ooooookkkkk let me help you because I WAS THERE and you were not! The JNC had recieved the company proposal ie the Kirby proposal. We looked it over and it was not even close to industry standard. YOUR PHILLY REPS decided that they would NOT send this to the pilot goup PRIOR to the arbitration. Look within MM look within!! We sent Mark Burdick back in to retool those numbers and had come up with pay rates for a 5yr fo on the baby bus at $105. The award comes out and the east went into depression. They sued, they pulled their JNC, they threw tantrums and here we sit years later as a result of the east and the east only. Now the west will NEVER back off the award now and you help seal that with usapa.

Get your facts next time PRIOR to posting.

AWA320

 

[autofixer]

... An election held by the majority to avoid having to honor their obligations under binding arbitration and bring certain harm to the minority. AWA320


And how are you harmed? You have your career expectations and your attrition and your seats. You have not been harmed...remember your case was not ripe because you have not been harmed. Oh yeah, you just want MY seniority and MY attrition and MY seat. Meanwhile, management laughs all of the way to the bank to deposit their bonus checks. Have a nice day and a Merry Christmas!

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

This is why the East walked away.

""MR. KATZ:we don't have a modification of our proposal in any respect

AWA320

This attitude, that is a common denominator of all the west pilots, cost the west side almost 200 furloughs, captains back to the right seat, and any chance of the nic to succeed. Kirby and Parker have told you in the last few meetings that you let any chance of compromise go away a long time ago. You did it to yourself.

Cry me a Wye River angry just returned from furlough f/o.

Yes, we had some pain. This is just me, but I don't think it's a stretch to say if we had signed off on anything you were 'offering' us post nic during your heavy handed power play, that the west would have suffered even more with the downturn.

Many in the east like to portray the west as being obstinate, but the reality is we had some spine, and we didn't just fall off the turnip truck. None of this is fun, but we have rights, and we stood up for them and will continue to do so.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Ooooookkkkk let me help you because I WAS THERE and you were not! The JNC had recieved the company proposal ie the Kirby proposal. We looked it over and it was not even close to industry standard. YOUR PHILLY REPS decided that they would NOT send this to the pilot goup PRIOR to the arbitration. Look within MM look within!! We sent Mark Burdick back in to retool those numbers and had come up with pay rates for a 5yr fo on the baby bus at $105. The award comes out and the east went into depression. They sued, they pulled their JNC, they threw tantrums and here we sit years later as a result of the east and the east only. Now the west will NEVER back off the award now and you help seal that with usapa.

Get your facts next time PRIOR to posting.

AWA320

So your saying you sent someone in and came out with better than 3%! MM! Heck I wouldn't have sent that out either!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The fact is the company has already offered “pay parity” to our pilots. We put a joint
contract proposal on the table back in May that would take all US Airways pilots to AWA
rates plus 3%. Even though that proposal would increase the company’s costs by
approximately $122 million per year, we were prepared to sign it then and are prepared
to sign it now, because we want very much to get our pilots working together as one
team with one contract.
The problem, of course, is not the company’s unwillingness to increase pay – we’ve
already offered that – it is the fact that our goal of reaching a joint contract has been
complicated significantly by the ALPA seniority integration dispute. We fully appreciate
the magnitude of that issue to our pilots and the fact that it is an ALPA issue. As such,
we are not trying to influence the ALPA process in any way.
We are, though, seriously concerned about how this seniority integration dispute is
dividing our pilots. I have personally expressed those concerns to both MEC chairmen
and the ALPA international president. I have been told the Rice Committee is hard at
work and hopes to have recommendations/solutions within the next month or so. We
hope that is the case – if it goes much longer, the company will probably request a
mediator be added to our JNC talks, which the Transition Agreement allows either party
to do. We’d rather not do that without the full support of both MECs and I’m optimistic
that we won’t have to, but if this goes on for much longer, it may be the next best step for
all of us. We found a mediator to be extremely helpful to all parties in our IAM joint
negotiations over the past few weeks.
I should clarify that a joint contract does not necessarily mean immediate seniority
integration. I have spoken with enough of our East pilots to know that such a proposal
would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get ratified. I happen to believe that if
we could get everyone together at the negotiating table, we could work something out
that meets everyone’s needs – though both sides would need to move some from theirThe fact is the company has already offered “pay parity” to our pilots. We put a joint
contract proposal on the table back in May that would take all US Airways pilots to AWA
rates plus 3%. Even though that proposal would increase the company’s costs by
approximately $122 million per year, we were prepared to sign it then and are prepared
to sign it now, because we want very much to get our pilots working together as one
team with one contract.
The problem, of course, is not the company’s unwillingness to increase pay – we’ve
already offered that – it is the fact that our goal of reaching a joint contract has been
complicated significantly by the ALPA seniority integration dispute. We fully appreciate
the magnitude of that issue to our pilots and the fact that it is an ALPA issue. As such,
we are not trying to influence the ALPA process in any way.
We are, though, seriously concerned about how this seniority integration dispute is
dividing our pilots. I have personally expressed those concerns to both MEC chairmen
and the ALPA international president. I have been told the Rice Committee is hard at
work and hopes to have recommendations/solutions within the next month or so. We
hope that is the case – if it goes much longer, the company will probably request a
mediator be added to our JNC talks, which the Transition Agreement allows either party
to do. We’d rather not do that without the full support of both MECs and I’m optimistic
that we won’t have to, but if this goes on for much longer, it may be the next best step for
all of us. We found a mediator to be extremely helpful to all parties in our IAM joint
negotiations over the past few weeks.
I should clarify that a joint contract does not necessarily mean immediate seniority
integration. I have spoken with enough of our East pilots to know that such a proposal
would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get ratified. I happen to believe that if
we could get everyone together at the negotiating table, we could work something out
that meets everyone’s needs – though both sides would need to move some from their

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

increasingly hardening positions. We are hopeful that the Rice Committee will facilitate
some creative solutions and do so quickly. I know we have some ideas that we have
shared with ALPA and I’m sure they have many more of their own.
So that’s where the company stands: we are anxious to get all of our pilots working
together, on the same pay scale with the same work rules, under the same contract.
The East MEC resolution correctly notes that some other contract employees have
received pay parity, but in each case that came with a joint contract. That is what needs
to happen with our pilots as well and we are willing to commit significant financial
resources and time to make that happen. To do so, though, we need to get everyone to
work together, not apart. Once that happens, we are optimistic that solutions can be
found that allow us all to move forward.
In the meantime, please do what you can to treat each other with respect and
professionalism. We will find a way through all of this – let’s try to do so without creating
wounds that will take a long time to heal. Thank you.
Doug Parker