US Pilots Labor Discussion

[AWA320]

What do they have to fear? The current case is going to get tossed, so a DFRII should be feared, when?, if? It looks like they are in the Catbird's seat.

Tossed on what basis?? Regardless of that the real question is can the courts offer LCC indemnity the rest is really not important.

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

A very relaxed atmosphere observed on the east side. Nic is on a shelf forever. My you must of celebrated (prematurely) after the Nicolau award thinking you were moving on up to the east side of the airline.

AWA 320' premature dream of moving to the east side, May 2007

There's that fear again huh nostradamus? Nic on the shelf forever and you and the ones who hold your leash have you under their spell thinking you can just pick and choose what parts of the ta you will honor and which you wont. hahahah glad the world doesnt work that way and your fall will be hard.

AWA320

 

[Pi brat]

There's that fear again huh nostradamus?

AWA320

What's with the fear thing? It's been in just about every one of your posts for the last few days. Is it to convince your west buddies that you guys have the old easties on the ropes. I'm here and I can tell you I haven't seen any fear. Anger, frustration, determination, and a little denial, but no fear.

 

[Pi brat]

Nic on the shelf forever and you and the ones who hold your leash have you under their spell thinking you can just pick and choose what parts of the ta you will honor and which you wont.

AWA320

Can you highlight the parts of the TA that you feel USAPA is not honoring right now?

 

[AWA320]

What's with the fear thing? It's been in just about every one of your posts for the last few days. Is it to convince your west buddies that you guys have the old easties on the ropes. I'm here and I can tell you I haven't seen any fear. Anger, frustration, determination, and a little denial, but no fear.

What does that all add up to Pi?? FEAR of the unknown

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

Can you highlight the parts of the TA that you feel USAPA is not honoring right now?

DO I really need to cut and paste this morning?? Com'on seriously...

AWA320

 

[Pi brat]

What does that all add up to Pi?? FEAR of the unknown

AWA320

No, not really. For most guys that support USAPA, there is no fear. They are convinced they will win, and they feel that even though the world is not fair and there is that slim chance they won't, there is nothing to lose by giving it a try. At least they will have delayed a travesty. They feel the lost wages and slim chance of damages as worth try.

I'm not telling you, or them, they are correct or incorrect, just being honest with you that fear is one emotion I haven't seen that with respect to this fight.

 

[mikey60]

What does that all add up to Pi?? FEAR of the unknown

AWA320

there is no unknown its DOH or nothing.

 

[Pi brat]

DO I really need to cut and paste this morning?? Com'on seriously...

AWA320

No, you don't have to, but you made the claim so I would like to see the exact wording you feel is being violated.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

What does that all add up to Pi?? FEAR of the unknown

AWA320

One could see your constant posting and blathering about the issue of fear as projection bias. Maybe a last ditch emotional stand to deny the fact this isn't going to turn out the way you had convinced yourself. 😛h34r:

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

MM! Thought this might look familiar! A little close to home! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9VIKw6OGY&feature=fvw

 

[usabusdriver]

Whether Silver hears the case or not, Parker already said in the last crew news (as best I recall) they were going to the Ninth. In fact, all roads lead to the Ninth eventually, and "eventually" could take a long, long time.

No court is going to tell a Labor union what they have to negotiate, and if they did it would not survive appeal.

....

No court is going to impose a condition, restriction, or contract on a Labor group without them having a vote. Heck, even in the bankruptcy they handed us the rope and made us hang ourselves. Nothing was imposed. If Parker chose to tie his wagon to Nic and Section 22, and go into a cooling off period, then it would be no different than him trying to take away (your) crew meals or half our pay. It’s a process with many twists and turns, and with few shortcuts provided by NMB…in fact the process can be endless, at least that is what one of the Judges implied during the oral arguments at the Ninth.

The company can do what they want in negotiations , and if they do so illegally (whatever that means) they can be sued.

...

All these processes are slow as molasses. The only real thing (other than the dream of working for a company that thinks working with its employees is good business) that can change the timeline is current events. Something happens, or something is perceived as imminent that causes one side or the other to act in a way to speed the process.

...

Your outhouse lawyer superhero,

RR

Reed,

I agree with the sentiment of most of your post, but I must disagree with a couple of the characterizations.

You state that the court cannot tell a labor union what they must negotiate. While true, the opposite holds true as well, that the court can tell a labor union what they cannot negotiate, under penalty of finding that the product of the negotiations are not legal. This is what the company is asking from the court in the DJ suit, to declare that the union cannot negotiate away from the agreed upon arbitration award without incurring liability.

You state that the court cannot impose a contract provision on a labor group without a vote. I agree and do not see how that is trying to be implemented in our case.

You state that if Parker et al decide to stick with the Nic we would go into a cooling off period as that is the normal process. I disagree. The theory that has been floated for some time now is that if the company decides to stay with the Nic for whatever reason, we would be found to be at an impasse and be placed in the mandated 30 day cooling off period prior to being released for self help.

While it is speculative, I find it to be a rather slim possibility that the NMB mediator would release the parties for self help concerning an “impasse” on section 22 because of the legal machinations that have taken place. All the company has to do is argue pretty much what it did in the DJ suit, saying section 22 has been determined through a contractually defined process, the process has been seen as fair even though the award is controversial to many, and the company sees changing it as incurring legal liability and therefore refuses to do so. If the union has been, up to this date, unable to persuade the company of the righteousness of their position concerning the Nic versus DOH with C&R, nor the judge, or jury, in the Addington suit, will sudden clarity strike in its efforts to persuade the NMB mediator? Only the shadow knows.

All of us are outhouse lawyers, not all of us are superheroes, except in our own minds. 😛

 

[nycbusdriver]

I asked before and you ignored the question.

If the company suit gets dismissed. As I said I think that it might. The company will appeal. Figure 6-12 months for the appeal. If the appeal gets dismissed.

Than what? The company still does not have an answer to the question what can they do. Now does the company use what they agreed to in the T/A knowing that they will get sued if they don't. Or do they go with a made up seniority list?

What if the company tells usapa the court would not give them a wavier and they are using the Nicolau. What does usapa do if the company refuses to negotitate? That dismissal does not sound so good now does it. They is no appeal if Parker says it is the Nicolau, suck it up buttercup.

Back when Addington was being heard in Phoenix, our resident law expert, HP_FA, kept telling us that there would be no appeal unless Seham could come up with some procedural criteria (or something to that effect) because appeals courts do not try cases. Assuming that is true, what are the chances that Judge Silver will do something with the company's suit that is even subject to appeal? Of course, the company can file the appeal, but absent something compelling, the appeal will be quickly denied. It's only when an appeal is heard that the process seems to drag out....even into years. If the Ninth isn't interested (like the Addington requesting an en banc redo), the circuit can and does make very short shrift of the filing.

If the company decides unilaterally that they will only take the Nicolau abomination as Section 22, and USAPA holds fast to a DOH with C&R, I suspect THAT would constitute as stalemate, and the west would shortly again be able to scab struck work.

 

[No Land Green]

Maybe you wouldn't have, and maybe I wouldn't have, but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't have been taken for a ride by those that would have. Once rationalization takes place, it's hard to say what would happen.

I just happen to believe that most airline pilots are basically the same animal. I believe you can take any given airline and define people however you choose, and the percentages will break out to be the same.


You may be right, I may be wrong. But I believe what I wrote.

Good Post!!!! I agree, very true!!!!

 

[No Land Green]

Parker said this in the crew news and Kirby said that and its just not fair that a jr east pilot one number from furlough should be next to a west pilot one number from furlough. Its not fair its not fair its not fair Cry cry cry. Your Fear is beginning to stink up the joint, you reek of it!!!

AWA320

RR's post was very rational actually with NO emotion.