US Pilots Labor Discussion

[No Land Green]

No one has answered my question yet.

Is the 190 arbitration still valid? Is the west still owed 1/3 of the 190's?

Don't we need to have a Joint CBA for that to happen?

 

[No Land Green]

Its FEAR that's causing them to scurry around like roaches when the lights come on!!


AWA320

Fear?? um not for me, the "FEAR" is emanating from your posts. Yeah, we do have a FUD group on the East, and it appears as if you have the same on the West.

 

[No Land Green]

Geez. Most guys take Playboys. Whatever floats your boat. Have at it.

You must have a sad social life........Glad I don't have that problem, taking a "Playboy" magazine to the bathroom...ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

 

[767jetz]

What does that all add up to Pi?? FEAR of the unknown

AWA320

I don't think it's fear of the unknown. More like fear of the inevitable. Or fear of the reality they refuse to accept.

Most recently it's the reality of not being able to steal profit sharing from the west, after telling us all how it was gonna go down. Next will be not convincing the company to alter the nic, regardless of the outcome of the DJ, after telling us all how it was gonna go down. Then it will be the loss of the LOA93 grievance, after telling us all how it's gonna go down. Then will come the revolt from within by those tired of no raise and endless broken promises, after telling us all how it was gonna go down. Then it will be being parked by the NMB with no strike vote, after telling us all how it was gonna go down. Then will come a contract with the nic, after telling us all how it was gonna go down.

All throughout, we will here about the attrition train leaving the station and all is well on the east due to separate ops. Until the eventual lawsuit on damages makes the west whole again, after telling us all how it was gonna go down.

They might be calmly "whistling past the grave," but that fear you refer to is fear of what very well might be coming next.

 

[767jetz]

I'm not telling you, or them, they are correct or incorrect, just being honest with you that fear is one emotion I haven't seen that with respect to this fight.

While I obviously disagree, I respect the fact that instead of telling anyone how it's going to be, you rather present your view on how you believe things are, should be, and probably will be.

Then there are many others like this:

there is no unknown its DOH or nothing.

or this:

Nic is on a shelf forever.

who think they got it all figured out, and their crystal ball is the only one that's right.

 

[767jetz]

One could see your constant posting and blathering about the issue of fear as projection bias. Maybe a last ditch emotional stand to deny the fact this isn't going to turn out the way you had convinced yourself. 😛h34r:

Perhaps much like the east posters in the first 300 or so pages of this thread, when no one was listening and they were desperately tying to bait people into their world, even sending flame bait via PMs?

Perhaps it's just time to dish out some of your own medicine and see the results with the shoe on the other foot.

What's your opinion on the fact that USAPA seems to be unsuccessful in redirecting the profit sharing to the east?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Perhaps much like the east posters in the first 300 or so pages of this thread, when no one was listening and they were desperately tying to bait people into their world, even sending flame bait via PMs?

Perhaps it's just time to dish out some of your own medicine and see the results with the shoe on the other foot.

What's your opinion on the fact that USAPA seems to be unsuccessful in redirecting the profit sharing to the east?

East vs. West was an ALPA thing. There is no East OR West to USAPA.

You just like to stir the pot.

 

[AWA320]

No, not really. For most guys that support USAPA, there is no fear. They are convinced they will win, and they feel that even though the world is not fair and there is that slim chance they won't, there is nothing to lose by giving it a try. At least they will have delayed a travesty. They feel the lost wages and slim chance of damages as worth try.

I'm not telling you, or them, they are correct or incorrect, just being honest with you that fear is one emotion I haven't seen that with respect to this fight.

Really?? Fear is what started the angry FO club! Fear that the west would migrate east and fill slots they wanted. They will lose because in this country one doenst get to toss aside and agreement just because they changed the name. Pi like I have said all along the tossing of the DJ should it even get tossed is not a victory. The real question LCC is asking the court is are they liable to the west having signed the TA and ACCEPTED the award and the answer is easy to get to. If the answer is YES then checkmate. If the answer is the court can not provide indemnity then checkmate. Usapa would need a resounding NO in order to claim a victoy. So in the end its the FEAR driving it and nothing else.

AWA320

 

[Pi brat]

While I obviously disagree, I respect the fact that instead of telling anyone how it's going to be, you rather present your view on how you believe things are, should be, and probably will be.

Well thanks, but to honest, what position are you in to decide if there if fear amongst the east pilot group? Wouldn't you need to spend some time with them, more than this worthless board or a few hours on the jumpseat? I've spent 24 years, and I'm telling you that maybe, maybe, I've seen the emotion fear in 1 out of 1000.

Frustration is the biggest emotion around here and it is aimed at several different people or groups and there is a wide range of opinions on who was/is causing it. That is pretty clear on here.

 

[Pi brat]

Really?? Fear is what started the angry FO club! Fear that the west would migrate east and fill slots they wanted. They will lose because in this country one doenst get to toss aside and agreement just because they changed the name. Pi like I have said all along the tossing of the DJ should it even get tossed is not a victory. The real question LCC is asking the court is are they liable to the west having signed the TA and ACCEPTED the award and the answer is easy to get to. If the answer is YES then checkmate. If the answer is the court can not provide indemnity then checkmate. Usapa would need a resounding NO in order to claim a victoy. So in the end its the FEAR driving it and nothing else.

AWA320

No, I don't think it was fear, it was "I'm mad as XXXX and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

I have no idea what the courts will say, but that is why I asked you to highlight the sections of the TA that you think USAPA is violating right now and let's add to it what sections you think the company would be violating by altering section 22. I can see the union being held liable, but if you take it word for word, it seems the company has lived up to the TA, as you said they have accepted the Nic award.

 

[AWA320]

One could see your constant posting and blathering about the issue of fear as projection bias. Maybe a last ditch emotional stand to deny the fact this isn't going to turn out the way you had convinced yourself. 😛h34r:

I dont mix business with emotion GG it doesnt produce the desired effect. I have no last ditch efforts as I am well versed in the laws of this land. I know feel well what usapa can and can not do. If getting DOH was that easy for them they would have it by now. They dont because they know as well. They want to put off on LCC the liability of having to absorb the cost of this. Arbitrations in this land are not at all easy to overturn and the precident has already been set regarding our two seperate contracts and their enforcement. If it were as easy as tossing a contract then today I would be working under LOA 93.

GG, usapa can't get to where they want to be without violating the law or getting someone else to. The only card they have is to wasted time hence the comment "the nic is on the shelf". Next play, when the DJ is done you will see within 30days a filing with the courts to enforce the award as the standard of proof has been met. The nic will be put into place and hopefully when the east gets tired of the patients running the nuthouse they will finally take a stand against management for better wages and benefits.

AWA320

 

[CallawayGolf]

Fear, ignorance, greed, narcissism are all apt descriptions of those who oppose the NIC. Fear that it will change the seniority position more than it actually does, which is the same as ignorance in this case. Greed because they know that DOH will propel them well beyond what their unmerged seniority number would previously hold (especially on 9/27/2005). Narcissism because they have no regard for breaking contractual obligations when it serves their own self interests while bringing damage & harm to those on the other side of the agreement.

 

[AWA320]

Back when Addington was being heard in Phoenix, our resident law expert, HP_FA, kept telling us that there would be no appeal unless Seham could come up with some procedural criteria (or something to that effect) because appeals courts do not try cases. Assuming that is true, what are the chances that Judge Silver will do something with the company's suit that is even subject to appeal? Of course, the company can file the appeal, but absent something compelling, the appeal will be quickly denied. It's only when an appeal is heard that the process seems to drag out....even into years. If the Ninth isn't interested (like the Addington requesting an en banc redo), the circuit can and does make very short shrift of the filing.

If the company decides unilaterally that they will only take the Nicolau abomination as Section 22, and USAPA holds fast to a DOH with C&R, I suspect THAT would constitute as stalemate, and the west would shortly again be able to scab struck work.

You you seem to keep missing is that you can not get to a strike with the stalemate being over section 22 which was decided by a neutral third party whcih was mutually agreed upon. The company could go a couple of ways here in that it could ask for and arbitration and you would see a ruling in their favor like the case with Alaska pilots and management where its imposed without a vote. The company could go to the courts and basically ask for the same thing. In either case we wont see a stike here for a long long time. We will see us being parked by the NMB.

AWA320

 

[CallawayGolf]

East vs. West was an ALPA thing. There is no East OR West to USAPA.

You just like to stir the pot.

East & West isn’t an ALPA thing any more or less than is a USAPA thing. When the two airlines merged there were legacy “East” operations, workgroups, IT systems, stations, logos, liveries, res systems, uniforms, and there were west versions of the same. Since that time most of those systems and groups lost their East/West distinctions as East & West became one new group, system, or whatever. The pilots and the flight attendants and the resources they use still have East and West distinctions because both groups are still on separate CBAs. Until JCBAs are ratified, there will always be and East & West version of the pilots and FAs. Even the 9th who you guys love since they ruled on a lack of jurisdictional ripeness (and read way more into their ruling than is actually there), recognized and acknowledged that there are still two separate groups under USAPA. Once again you are just making stuff up because it sounds good to your tickling ears.

 

[AWA320]

No, I don't think it was fear, it was "I'm mad as XXXX and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

I have no idea what the courts will say, but that is why I asked you to highlight the sections of the TA that you think USAPA is violating right now and let's add to it what sections you think the company would be violating by altering section 22. I can see the union being held liable, but if you take it word for word, it seems the company has lived up to the TA, as you said they have accepted the Nic award.

You know what Pi, I'm mad too but you dont see me making deals then breaking them and then have the nerve to think the its going to all be ok now that the east is happy. No matter what happens now we can never fill the same cockpits as that all has been burned up in this very unfortunate battle. If this had gone DOH we out west would have been very upset but we would have taken what we got and moved on and hoped that we didnt get burned too bad by it all.

The section you seek in the TA is the section covering our section 22 whereby the company agreed to accept the award of the neutral third party so long as it met certain guidelines. It did and the company accept that. Now usapa says "hey we in the east changed agents and we want you to toss that section of the ta while perserving others that benefot us" Doesnt work that way Pi. Now I rattle these guys cages on this forum because I can and some get really pissed but in the end I wish them no Ill will at all. I live in a family and household of lawyers and my knowledge of the law is somewhat better than the avg bear 😀 I want to see this thing end but I want it to end with the right results and thats one of honoring our agreement. Remember not one west pilot took, lied or stole anything from the east yet we are treated by the east as if we did.

AWA320
AWA320