US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Let me see if I can find it. I thought the same as you, but a friend of mine that really keeps up with these things told me I was wrong.

Although written more formally, that's the C&R's I remember. Lots of loopholes. They provide a good laugh though. Especially funny was the "protects East attrition" - DOH certainly does that as well as turning the West attrition over to the East - and the 10 year term - I give it 4 years for only the junior West FO's to be the only one's protected by the wonderful oh so fair C&R's. I'll give USAPA credit though. Whoever wrote the C&R's made them sound great while doing everything to favor the East pilots except saying that the West jobs all belonged to the East.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Although written more formally, that's the C&R's I remember. Lots of loopholes. They provide a good laugh though. Especially funny was the "protects East attrition" - DOH certainly does that as well as turning the West attrition over to the East - and the 10 year term - I give it 4 years for only the junior West FO's to be the only one's protected by the wonderful oh so fair C&R's. I'll give USAPA credit though. Whoever wrote the C&R's made them sound great while doing everything to favor the East pilots except saying that the West jobs all belonged to the East.

Jim

Yeah, not nearly as complete as Nicolau's and I'm sure the crowd of west pilots that showed up at the road show had some good input into what could make them more effective.............................

 

[jetjok1]

Two questions:

What was your relative seniority on the 2005 USAirways (snapshot) list?

What was your relative seniority on the Nicolau list?

It's not OK for you to "lose" 300 numbers, but it's perfectly acceptable for the Number 1 Cactus pilot to become #701 on your precious DOH list.

That's just wrong.

 

[jetjok1]

Two questions:

What was your relative seniority on the 2005 USAirways (snapshot) list?

What was your relative seniority on the Nicolau list?

It's not OK for you to "lose" 300 numbers, but it's perfectly acceptable for the Number 1 Cactus pilot to become #701 on your precious DOH list.

That's just wrong.
[/quote

Yes it is, but it goes both ways..........................doesn't it?

 

[Metroyet]

No west pilots have answered that question of mine. I'd like to know why they think the senior east pilots act like they do.

What proof do you have the it's the "senior" East pilots that are controlling any of this trainwreck? Some anonymous poster on this web board hardly qualifies as proof positive. I know exactly why those that didn't bring a job to this thing act the way they do....they don't want to admit to themselves that they were snookered into buying into the idea that the old US Airways WASN'T a dying animal. They'd like to believe that they made good choices in their career lives (even though there hasn't been any reason to believe that since 1983). They're looking for an easy scapegoat....or an easy host to parasitically fix their perceived loss.


That, when coupled with megalomania and pathological narcissism, delivers......well......USAPA. A brilliant case study in psychosis, but not much of a labor union.

 

[traderjake]

The best merger was PI , Everybody bitched for a while and then we were one.

Not if you were a PI Captain who lost his job to a US F/O.

We were not one but we were man enough back then to honor the agreement we made.

 

[Pi brat]

What proof do you have the it's the "senior" East pilots that are controlling any of this trainwreck? Some anonymous poster on this web board hardly qualifies as proof positive. I know exactly why those that didn't bring a job to this thing act the way they do....they don't want to admit to themselves that they were snookered into buying into the idea that the old US Airways WASN'T a dying animal. They'd like to believe that they made good choices in their career lives (even though there hasn't been any reason to believe that since 1983). They're looking for an easy scapegoat....or an easy host to parasitically fix their perceived loss.


That, when coupled with megalomania and pathological narcissism, delivers......well......USAPA. A brilliant case study in psychosis, but not much of a labor union.

Where did I say the senior guys were controlling this "trainwreck"? What I asked is why do you think they aren't doing everything humanly possible to stop it since a DOH list doesn't do anything for them and they are losing a lot of money fighting for it. You guys have to be sratching your heads over this, hence the mailing.

If you are going to quote me why don't you try to get it right?

 

[Pi brat]

They'd like to believe that they made good choices in their career lives (even though there hasn't been any reason to believe that since 1983).

This arrogance astounds me. You do realize that the career decisions we on the east made in the 80's led to the same place that your career choice did. What does that say about you(if you are a US pilot)? In truth it says we all made the best choice we could with the information we had at the time, but life and business have a way of changing along the way.

 

[Pi brat]

A question for the west guys that say a contract was pretty much a done deal when the east JNC members pulled out of talks(a mistake IMHO): Do you read the F/A section of this board? They have no seniority fight, have move on waiting for the pilots and still don't seem to moving too swiftly towards a contract.

 

[Ames]

You are correct, I was a captain before the merger, was a F/O at merger, captain now, on a shrinking airline since 2001. You guys would like to freeze things in 2005, wouldn't you? Glory days..........

Hey, don't you guys have recapture rights that if you had a captain seat you have first right to it again if displaced? Sounds good to me! B)

....And without the acquisition you would have been starting at the bottom of someone else's list or selling insurance and I would still be a captain, albeit in a much more senior position by now.

PS: the east has gotten the benefit of the e190 growth, additional 757 and 330's since the acquisition. How else do you think you went from fo back to captain since your failing airline was bailed out? Not quite shrinking since 2001.

Additionally, how did 175 AWA fo's who were working when the acquisition manage to get furloughed while the east unemployed slid into paying positions?

East grows, west shrinks, yet you guys still whine.

You and Missfit really do need to check some facts.

 

[AvgJoe]

I feel the need to weigh in on the moral argument that we (east) did not live up to our agreement. We AGREED to ALPA merger policy, of which arbitration was a potential part. Nic failed to follow two tenets of ALPA merger policy:

1. "avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other"

2. "minimize detrimental changes to career expectations."

Both topics have been argued exhaustively on this board, but I think any reasoning individual would have to admit that the criteria are subjective enough to allow for divergent opinions. Given that, it is not immoral for the east pilots to challenge the validity of the award. 

 

[BoeingBoy]

IF the FA's have officially decided a position on the "me too" language, it's been recently. So give them some time. On the other hand the pilots are further from a contract now, after 2.5 years of USAPA, than before the East dropped out of JNC negotiations 1 to 1/5 years after the merger.

Did you happen to notice that the APA has enlisted ALPA's help in negotiations? Apparently those AA boys and girls think ALPA has some ability to help move negotiations along...

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Given that, it is not immoral for the east pilots to challenge the validity of the award. 

Which the east pilots did in the "march on Herndon". The executive board threw out your argument. So even your opinion has no basis. You do know what that means? All this is about the east looking for a way to disregard their agreement for no other reason than not liking the result that agreement produced.

Jim

 

[Ames]

PI-This isn't about commuting. It's about whats fair and equitable to BOTH sides, and apparently the courts will be the final arbiter.

Too bad the arbitrator couldn't have been the arbiter in the first place. We'll chase our tails for 5 to 10 years only to find out he actually was. Good job east crybabies!

 

[Pi brat]

....And without the acquisition you would have been starting at the bottom of someone else's list or selling insurance and I would still be a captain, albeit in a much more senior position by now.

PS: the east has gotten the benefit of the e190 growth, additional 757 and 330's since the acquisition. How else do you think you went from fo back to captain since your failing airline was bailed out? Not quite shrinking since 2001.

Additionally, how did 175 AWA fo's who were working when the acquisition manage to get furloughed while the east unemployed slid into paying positions?

East grows, west shrinks, yet you guys still whine.

You and Missfit really do need to check some facts.

Man, you crack me up. If not for this merger we would have cubicles beside one another at the insurance office, I would just have seniority over you because I would have gotten there a little sooner.

As for facts, let's check yours, shall we? How many 737 and larger aircraft captains did the east have on May 19,2005 and how many are there now? I know how I got back to captain, do you?

You seem even angrier these days Ames, what's up? I told you not to spend those damages, did you do it anyway?