US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

So even your opinion has no basis.

Jim

You do like to play God, don't you? How can you tell someone their opinion has no basis? The American Revolution had no basis, but we don't answer to the Queen.

 

[Pi brat]

Additionally, how did 175 AWA fo's who were working when the acquisition manage to get furloughed while the east unemployed slid into paying positions?

The furloughed east did not slide into the west positions. The slid into the vacated east positions as dictated by the TA. The west pilots got furloughed because of the massive shrinkage of the west system. You guys always over look the FACT that the TA keeps us separate until a joint CONTRACT, which for whatever or whomever you want to blame, WE DON'T HAVE!

These simple FACTS are to grasp for those that try.

 

[Pi brat]

IF the FA's have officially decided a position on the "me too" language, it's been recently. So give them some time. On the other hand the pilots are further from a contract now, after 2.5 years of USAPA, than before the East dropped out of JNC negotiations 1 to 1/5 years after the merger.

Did you happen to notice that the APA has enlisted ALPA's help in negotiations? Apparently those AA boys and girls think ALPA has some ability to help move negotiations along...

Jim

Even without dropping the me too they have been negotiating the whole time, so under west pilot logic the rest should be done a few weeks of talks on money should be all it would take right? My wife is a F/A and she is tired of giving them some time.

Sure, ALPA can show them how to write bad language that the company will be eager to sign off on. That always seemed to move things right along over here.

 

[BoeingBoy]

How can you tell someone their opinion has no basis?

The Executive Board told you all that, I'm just repeating what they said - that the East's claim that the award didn't meet the requirements of ALPA's merger policy had no basis.

Jim

ps - if you're going to chastise me for what I post at least have the integrity to use what I posted - "The executive board threw out your argument. So even your opinion has no basis."

 

[AvgJoe]

Which the east pilots did in the "march on Herndon". The executive board threw out your argument. So even your opinion has no basis. You do know what that means? All this is about the east looking for a way to disregard their agreement for no other reason than not liking the result that agreement produced.

Jim

So Jim, if someone disagrees with an opinion (in this case the ALPA executive council) that invalidates that opinion? Our argument is still valid, and we have every moral right to seek a better resolution.

 

[mikey60]

Not if you were a PI Captain who lost his job to a US F/O.

We were not one but we were man enough back then to honor the agreement we made.

1. You couldn't get bumped out of your seat.
2. The alternative was being placed at the bottom of the TWA list, ask anyone at Ozark, they found out the hard way. And while I'm talking TWA, why did

everyone chastize AA for nailing TWA to the bottom of the list when TWA did the same thing to OZ. Also if you want to make a handshake deal, go buy a Dodge truck you can get a 60 day deal on a handshake and like the nic it's not good forever.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Even without dropping the me too they have been negotiating the whole time

Well, duh. Without dropping the "me too" language they'd have to wait on the pilots. If they have indeed decided to drop it, they no longer have to wait till the pilots have an agreement.

My wife is a F/A and she is tired of giving them some time.

Yeah, a lot of FA's seem to be tired of waiting on the pilots.

Sure, ALPA can show them how to write bad language that the company will be eager to sign off on.

You mean one of USAPA's shining examples of what an in-house union can achieve isn't such a shining example after all!!! Tell me it ain't so!!!

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

The Executive Board told you all that, I'm just repeating what they said - that the East's claim that the award didn't meet the requirements of ALPA's merger policy had no basis.

Jim

ps - if you're going to chastise me for what I post at least have the integrity to use what I posted - "The executive board threw out your argument. So even your opinion has no basis."

I am. You stated "The executive board threw out your argument/PERIOD/ So even your opinion has no basis". An opinion always has a basis, whether it is fact, delusion, conjecture, whatever. It just sometimes takes a while to see if it was a valid opinion. The Executive Board's pronouncement was just just an opinion too, and let me ask you, which opinion had more effect on the situation, the Executive Board's or the east pilot's?

 

[BoeingBoy]

So Jim, if someone disagrees with an opinion (in this case the ALPA executive council) that invalidates that opinion?

In this case, yes - the Executive Board has the exclusive right to interpret ALPA's Constitution and Bylaws (within legal and DFR bounds, of course). The EB's decision is final and over-rules mere opinion.

Our argument is still valid, and we have every moral right to seek a better resolution.

You may consider it valid but that's an opinion that's been shot down. As someone likes to say, you were spanked.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

I am. You stated "The executive board threw out your argument/PERIOD/ So even your opinion has no basis".

"So" even..." - the EB shot down that opinion. Sorry I didn't say "valid basis" since I thought that would be understood.

The Executive Board's pronouncement was just just an opinion too

That's like saying that the SCOTUS has mere opinions that anyone is free to disregard. I think we've entered that "basis in delusion" you mentioned...

I'll give you this - you're entitled to an opinion that the EB was wrong, just like you're entitled to an opinion that SCOTUS got a case wrong. But you're not entitled to ignore the EB's decision any more than you'd be to ignore a SCOTUS' decision.

Jim

 

[mikey60]

Well, duh. Without dropping the "me too" language they'd have to wait on the pilots. If they have indeed decided to drop it, they no longer have to wait till the pilots have an agreement.



Yeah, a lot of FA's seem to be tired of waiting on the pilots.



You mean one of USAPA's shining examples of what an in-house union can achieve isn't such a shining example after all!!! Tell me it ain't so!!!

Jim

The company isn't going to negotiate a contract with the f/a's until the pilots are finished, to many things like duty rigs, trip pairings etc. How would make pairings

if the pilots could work 10 hours and the f//a only 8 and please don't mention spliting us up, we couldn't get through the day not draging them around.

 

[Pi brat]

Well, duh. Without dropping the "me too" language they'd have to wait on the pilots. If they have indeed decided to drop it, they no longer have to wait till the pilots have an agreement.



Yeah, a lot of FA's seem to be tired of waiting on the pilots.



You mean one of USAPA's shining examples of what an in-house union can achieve isn't such a shining example after all!!! Tell me it ain't so!!!

Jim

Well Duh to you. With the me too they may have had to wait for the pilots to finish, but not to negotiate. The west pilots have contended that we were going to go from Kirby to a ratifiable contract within a few months and it is my OPINION that they are wrong.

 

[Pi brat]

"So" even..." - the EB shot down that opinion. Sorry I didn't say "valid basis" since I thought that would be understood.



That's like saying that the SCOTUS has mere opinions that anyone is free to disregard. I think we've entered that "basis in delusion" you mentioned...

Jim

That's okay, it happens sometimes at your age, it doesn't mean too much. 😉 You said opinion..............

The SCOTUS has a little more power to enforce it's decisions than the ALPA Executive Board, wouldn't you say? As I asked and you didn't answer, which opinion mattered more? We will live under a SCOTUS decision(if we get a joint contract-I don't think they will take that away as ALPA might have), we are not living under the ALPA Executive Board's decision, are we?

 

[mikey60]

USAir took all the Super 80's East and replaced them with 737-300/400's.

So, just to clear things up, you were on a bae then a 737. The bae was parked and the 737 was taken from East for you to fly. You went from a commuter to a jet

got a 100% pay raise. So approx. 5 f/o's didn't get to upgrade from the East..... I only wish AA had never found out about AirCal.

 

[BoeingBoy]

As I asked and you didn't answer, which opinion mattered more?

It's not that one ruling matters more per se - the two bodies operate within completely different arenas. Within the arena of each, they are both the final word on disagreements in opinion. In fact, SCOTUS can be over-ruled by Congress and the President if they pass a law over-ruling SCOTUS's decision. There is no higher authority than the EB as far as interpreting the C&BL's (as long as they're within legal and DFR boundaries).

we are not living under the ALPA Executive Board's decision, are we?

No. Like someone fleeing to another country to escape a SCOTUS ruling against them, you've fled to another union to escape the EB's ruling. So the argument now centers on USAPA's ability or inability to disregard the arbitrator's decision and substitute it's own without being in violation of it's DFR duty. I've seen nothing to indicate that USAPA is arguing that the Nic doesn't comply with ALPA merger policy so would assume that even USAPA sees the futility of that.

Jim