US Pilots Labor Discussion

[HPearlyretiree]

we set our path, way back on this... It is one of fight to the death...
The west does not want a comprimise, so be it...

we fight to the end... and bleed the west of dollars as best we can...

I have never ever made any predictions on here...

Not on LOA 93 or any other matter.

But I'm confident...

the EAST will never vote for a contract with the NIC unmodified.

copy and paste it, save it for another 5 years when this is over.

we have a long way to go... silver, 9th... SCOTUS...

Don't forget, the Great Pumpkin, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny!

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Where are you on the scale?

 

[fatherabraham]

This isn't a new set back as scab boy reports. There was NEVER any chance of recovering pay rates because it was specifically NOT in LOA93. The whole fiasco was just another scab diversion to take the white hot spot light off of USCABA' glaring failures and to supply false hope and delay. That's it. The whole thing was a smoke and mirror sham. The most devastating career set back was when those idiots walked away from the negotiating table in 07. IOW, self inflicted as per usual. This idiot actually believes the west was going to support pay parity after that? YHGTBSM. Morons. All of them.

Wow res, did you feel any better after that beat down.
Methinks any one of those 6 slurs above face to face with an eastie would get interesting. Of course you may be just one bad ass mf that can pull if off. Or perhaps just a juvenile weak minded punk. Either way, just words that matter not!
FA

 

[Res Judicata]

Wow res, did you feel any better after that beat down.
Methinks any one of those 6 slurs above face to face with an eastie would get interesting. Of course you may be just one bad ass mf that can pull if off. Or perhaps just a juvenile weak minded punk. Either way, just words that matter not!
FA

If you only knew the truth...

 

[USA320Pilot]

New Contract Negotiations: December 14, 2011

USAPA President Mike Cleary told the CLT pilots at last week's domicile meeting he expects the NMB to park new contract negotiations and USAPA published their planning schedule through March 31, 2012 showing no further negotiations with the company. Yesterday the NAC Update said, "We are scheduled to meet again next month." If the parties are scheduled to meet next month then why has that information been omitted from USAPA's planning schedule and Cleary said he "expects the NMB to park new contract negotiations?"

Why the inconsistency?

Declaratory Judgment Facts:

1. Judge Silver denied USAPA's motion to dismiss.

2. Judge Silver agreed with US Airways' and AOL's desire for a Summary Judgment to move the case along.

3. Judge Silver denied USAPA's request to mediate the DJ lawsuit.

4. Judge Silver agreed with AOL's desire to have Summary Judgment replies submitted by February 10, 2012, which is one-month sooner than the Company requested and 4.5 months sooner than USAPA requested.

5. Judge Silver granted the West pilots "class" status in the litigation...over the repeated objections of USAPA.

6. Judge Silver denied USAPA's motion for additional discovery, which means Judge Wake's Findings of Fact will be introduced into the case. Judge Wake found "USAPA has at various stages misstated law, facts and procedural history, with frequent recourse to the contradiction of confusion…produced by a medley of judicial phrases severed from their environment." In addition, Wake determined a "jury and this court have found USAPA to be motivated by wrongful objectives and abundant evidence supports this finding."

7. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, which would be the court that hears USAPA’s appeal, only hears about 50% of the appeals filed, and, only overturned or remanded 5.4% of the cases it heard in USDOJ fiscal year 2007, and overturned or remanded 10.0% of the cases it heard in USDOJ fiscal year 2008.

 

[USA320Pilot]

We may be voting on the NIC sooner than we think, at least indirectly.

The C&BL's stipulate that a candidate for president must be a MIGS. If the west fields a candidate who campaigns on the promise that once elected, he will work to remove DOH language and replace it with the NIC, that candidate will have at least 1000+ PHX votes and a few hundred east votes. How many votes did Cleary get last time? Is the east more or less unified than it was three years ago?

What we get from the Cleary/Mowrey team is continuity, experience, a knowledge of the issues and players, and a dogged willingness to fight anybody and everybody. We also get controversy, scandal, disunity, complete alienation vis a vis management and the west, a record of defeat,(with the reprieve from the 9th being the sole exception) - and a dogged willingness to fight anybody and everybody.

I suppose Hummel could claim the same assets above, while distancing himself from the liabilities. We'll see.

But for me to consider voting for Cleary, he needs to articulate a clear exit strategy with regard to the SLI dispute. At some point the appeals need to end and the attorneys need to go home. If Silver issues an unambiguous summary judgement against USAPA by ruling that the NIC is binding, that would be a good time to fold our tents.

Cleary also needs to begin repairing the breach between east and west. A good place to start is REAL west participation on the NAC, Grievance and Merger Committees - and to begin focusing on our REAL adversaries.

This is an excellent and well written post.

 

[USA320Pilot]

US Airways-America West JNC Contract, What USAPA Gave Up, Part 1 of 9

Dear Subscriber,

Update for December 14, 2011

Quick Fact #211: On May 8, 2007 ALPA joint contract discussions had closed about 85 percent of a new contract. On May 8, 2007 US Airways provided the JNC their first comprehensive proposal with US Airways President Scott Kirby joining discussions. This was the beginning of the close out phase of negotiations. Unbiased Facts will provide US Airways' pilots in a nine part series the facts and documents on what USAPA has failed to obtain. Should the pilots consider another direction than what USAPA has provided?

Link to Article

Recent Quick Fact Updates

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[prechilill]

Chip, very enlightening posts.

 

[Crzipilot]

Chip, Chip, Chip......

Will you ever learn?!?!?

 

[fifidriver]

Wow res, did you feel any better after that beat down.
Methinks any one of those 6 slurs above face to face with an eastie would get interesting. Of course you may be just one bad ass mf that can pull if off. Or perhaps just a juvenile weak minded punk. Either way, just words that matter not!
FA

It is therapeutic to vent one's feelings and air one's grievances. (maybe a result of the constipation of the proper grievance channel) Probably the "slurs" do not serve to cultivate a receptive audience with an antagonistic viewpoint. However, If one is perceptive enough to look beyond the percieved insults, the substance of the argument may be found and considered. I think that you may have inadvertantly summed up in a single statement, the core philosophical difference between the east and west position, and possibly in a larger sense one's world view. Some people do NOT subscribe to the theory of: they are "just words that matter not!" and some do. I believe that the relationship between a man's word and his actions are the sum of his character. Can we call you "honest father abe" or not? (no reply necessary, that question is rhetorical)

 

[surfnfly]

Am I sick of LOA93 sure we all are, but I will never vote yes for the Nic. A compromise in the middle depends on how generous doug and scott feel not on just pay rates. If the West guys would step back and look at the big picture, more than RIGHT NOW in 5 years they will get what they want and own the airline. My feelings with talking to other east pilots is we won't cave to the Nic don't like LOA93 but will live with it if thats our only option other than the NIC. For those that say take Kirby, it is a POS contract why subject ourselves to another 10yrs of trying to undo that one while the rest of the industry pulls that much farther ahead of us. Industry standard or none I would hope at least that is what the west side would want as well.

 

[cleardirect]

Am I sick of LOA93 sure we all are, but I will never vote yes for the Nic. A compromise in the middle depends on how generous doug and scott feel not on just pay rates. If the West guys would step back and look at the big picture, more than RIGHT NOW in 5 years they will get what they want and own the airline. My feelings with talking to other east pilots is we won't cave to the Nic don't like LOA93 but will live with it if thats our only option other than the NIC. For those that say take Kirby, it is a POS contract why subject ourselves to another 10yrs of trying to undo that one while the rest of the industry pulls that much farther ahead of us. Industry standard or none I would hope at least that is what the west side would want as well.

So you say we should not look right now but 5 years down the road.

Looking back 5 years how has that worked out for the west so far? What you want is 10 years of everything then we can start to collect the first IOU.

No thanks! You guys have cost us enough so far. You can stay on LOA 93 the rest of your career. Don't vote for Nicolau just understand what that means. That is going to be your only seniority list with a new contract. Stay on LOA93 until you retire. Be the worse paid pilot in the industry for 20 years we don't care.

There is no compromise why do you guys not understand that? How many times do you have to hear it? The west has said it, the court has said it and the company has said it. The big picture is we have waited 5 years. Look at the numbers we don't own the airline in 5 years just another myth from the east.

BTW who is saying take Kirby. The west never says that. No one over here is willing to take the Kirby. So if that is what you are hearing it is east guys saying it. What does that tell you about the resolve of the east? You have guys willing to take the Kirby and the Nicolau just to get off of LOA 93. You junior guys should begin to worry those guys in the left seat are going to start pushing for what is best for them and not you.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If the West guys would step back and look at the big picture, more than RIGHT NOW in 5 years they will get what they want and own the airline.

There is no more West, thanks to USAPA. There is a West AFA Council that separately represents the West F/As, but Bradford and $eham had to eliminate the West pilots as a prerequisite to their grand, DOH cram-down. So, that's where we're at. Mission accomplished, I guess.

Enjoy LOA93. You created this mess.

 

[fifidriver]

There is no more West, thanks to USAPA. There is a West AFA Council that separately represents the West F/As, but Bradford and $eham had to eliminate the West pilots as a prerequisite to their grand, DOH cram-down. So, that's where we're at. Mission accomplished, I guess.

Enjoy LOA93. You created this mess.

I could not have said it better. The Nic IS the compromise and is set in stone. When that occurs and enduring LOA93 is a choice.

 

[jetjok1]

As usual, you are wrong and simply misinformed.

Just prior to USAir/PSA's merger, Southwest was drawing down it's California operation. Then good old Randall Malin, VP of USAirways marketing imposed the "big airline" mentality on the former PSA route system. Herb Kelleher seized the opportunity that USAir handed him and the rest is history. He was able to pursue the same strategy on the East Coast. Witness BWI and Florida markets.

The SLI at PSA/USAir/PI went according to ALPA merger policy, not becuase it was the right thing to do.

As an ironic twist, arguably the most sucessful US Airline, Southwest, has grown from about 50 aircraft in 1988 to over 500 today using the PSA business model it copied from PSA and used in Texas in 1971. Now that makes me wanna puke.

In 1991 when Malin and Schofield held a company wide meeting in SAN to announce the West Coast shutdown, one of the senior PSA Captains, Joe Graham told them "United and Western have tried to put PSA out of business for 30 years....you guys were able to do it in 3........."

That is correct. Had we held our ground, SWA would not be here today. They were days of going out of business.

 

[nic4us]

Am I sick of LOA93 sure we all are, but I will never vote yes for the Nic. A compromise in the middle depends on how generous doug and scott feel not on just pay rates. If the West guys would step back and look at the big picture, more than RIGHT NOW in 5 years they will get what they want and own the airline. My feelings with talking to other east pilots is we won't cave to the Nic don't like LOA93 but will live with it if thats our only option other than the NIC. For those that say take Kirby, it is a POS contract why subject ourselves to another 10yrs of trying to undo that one while the rest of the industry pulls that much farther ahead of us. Industry standard or none I would hope at least that is what the west side would want as well.

Exactly how do you subject yourself to 10 years of Kirby, when you are all retiring in the next 5 years, so the West can own the airline in 5 years?

The fact of the matter is, the West will never own the airline.

There is no compromise in the middle, the Nic is the middle, even though it favors the east. The compromise is you can vote no all you like. Have at it!!

However, usapa has both a DFR to all its pilots, and an obligation as bargaining agent to bargain. Get with it usapa, you are free to bargain. Get that joint contract proposal out so the east pilots can vote no!!