US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

Yeah, you've been saying that for nearly three years now. How's your joint contract with DOH working out for you? Oh, wait, you didn't get that, did you? What happened? Seham said it was a done deal. He said the company would gladly exchange DOH for a cost neutral contract and labor peace for 2/3rds of the pilot group. He's on video saying exactly that, so what happened? Why are you still living under LOA 93 with no joint contract?

 

[nic4us]

Bear,

By that I guess you mean that the West got so much in the arb that anything that might resemble fair (not perfect) to both sides (prior to the mess we are in) is unobtainable... frankly I don't think the courts will give the company a "get out of jail free card"... so this wil continue on forever. I think the east pilots would welcome any west pilots constructive input to move beyond we are at this point... but the west will always view it as they give and the dishonorable east takes... why do you think the east views the arb as a west "lottery" ticket?

To be clear, I don't think straight DOH is fair... but I also don't think putting almost new hires in front of people with 17 years... never furloughed is either.

I know you addressed this to Bear, but I am going to give you a reply.

I am feeling a little more humbled this morning after donating to Win Copelands pilots for kids campaign. Evey year Win gets a group of pilots to go to the PHX childrens hospital at Christmas, I never go but try to make a cash donation each year. I know you east guys do a fantasy flight or something similar, if you take donations post a link and I will contribute.

I think a little compromise is obtainable. I think if usapa came out on Jan 1st, 2011 and said, we have had enough. It is the Nic, but we want 4 payscales, A330, over 150 pax, 100-150 pax, and E-190, and we want a fence around the original 6 A-330s until 2020, it would pass the West. Make no mistake, there would be West pilots complaining about the fence and east pilots (the 17 year never furloughed) complaining about the 2003 hire in front of them.

You see, at this point it is not up to the West to compromise. There is no West within usapa. It is up to usapa to profer the compromise, and DOH with C&Rs is a non-starter.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You see, at this point it is not up to the West to compromise. There is no West within usapa. It is up to usapa to profer the compromise, and DOH with C&Rs is a non-starter.

DOH is a guaranteed redux of Addington, and that's something the company obviously wants no part of. The only reason the company was dismissed the first time was because they hadn't legally acted upon USAPA's DOH proposal. Fast forward to a joint contract that doesn't have the Nic, and then there's no reason whatsoever to expect that the company will sneak out again. They know it. We know it. And I suspect Seham and Clearly know it. All the players know where this is headed, and that's what scares Cleary to death. LOA 93, the viability of a DOH cramdown, the "trust us and you'll get your reward for supporting USAPA's plan" . . . . all of it is being exposed for the fraud that the USAPA leadership is.

 

[AWA320]

I know you addressed this to Bear, but I am going to give you a reply.

I am feeling a little more humbled this morning after donating to Win Copelands pilots for kids campaign. Evey year Win gets a group of pilots to go to the PHX childrens hospital at Christmas, I never go but try to make a cash donation each year. I know you east guys do a fantasy flight or something similar, if you take donations post a link and I will contribute.

I think a little compromise is obtainable. I think if usapa came out on Jan 1st, 2011 and said, we have had enough. It is the Nic, but we want 4 payscales, A330, over 150 pax, 100-150 pax, and E-190, and we want a fence around the original 6 A-330s until 2020, it would pass the West. Make no mistake, there would be West pilots complaining about the fence and east pilots (the 17 year never furloughed) complaining about the 2003 hire in front of them.

You see, at this point it is not up to the West to compromise. There is no West within usapa. It is up to usapa to profer the compromise, and DOH with C&Rs is a non-starter.

As per the VP of this company they have no intention of using ANYTHING other than the NIC unless the court tells them they have to and that will not happen! Get ready for Janurary folks as it will produce the LOA93 loss and the NIC once and for all then its angry west pilot time. East you reep what you sow and now the chickens will be coming home to roost! Attrition train and the west will be on it and conducting 😉

AWA320

 

[Reed Richards]

I know you addressed this to Bear, but I am going to give you a reply.

I am feeling a little more humbled this morning after donating to Win Copelands pilots for kids campaign. Evey year Win gets a group of pilots to go to the PHX childrens hospital at Christmas, I never go but try to make a cash donation each year. I know you east guys do a fantasy flight or something similar, if you take donations post a link and I will contribute.

I think a little compromise is obtainable. I think if usapa came out on Jan 1st, 2011 and said, we have had enough. It is the Nic, but we want 4 payscales, A330, over 150 pax, 100-150 pax, and E-190, and we want a fence around the original 6 A-330s until 2020, it would pass the West. Make no mistake, there would be West pilots complaining about the fence and east pilots (the 17 year never furloughed) complaining about the 2003 hire in front of them.

You see, at this point it is not up to the West to compromise. There is no West within usapa. It is up to usapa to profer the compromise, and DOH with C&Rs is a non-starter.

Nic, what about that pesky CBL that mandates DOH with C and R's? A change to that document might pass in PHX, but it won't in the rest of our crew bases.

As to needing a contract to "pass the West"...the other crew bases will pass the appropriate contract, when and if it ever comes to vote.

RR

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

DOH is a guaranteed redux of Addington, and that's something the company obviously wants no part of. The only reason the company was dismissed the first time was because they hadn't legally acted upon USAPA's DOH proposal. Fast forward to a joint contract that doesn't have the Nic, and then there's no reason whatsoever to expect that the company will sneak out again. They know it. We know it. And I suspect Seham and Clearly know it. All the players know where this is headed, and that's what scares Cleary to death. LOA 93, the viability of a DOH cramdown, the "trust us and you'll get your reward for supporting USAPA's plan" . . . . all of it is being exposed for the fraud that the USAPA leadership is.

The Company has twice failed to pursue resolution of the alleged controversy before the
System Board. First, when – having won dismissal of claims against it by the Addington
plaintiffs – the Company acquiesced to the withdrawal of their grievance before the System
Board and chose not to pursue the matter itself; a tacit admission that there is nothing about this
matter that presents harm or any imminent crisis to the Company. Second, when the Company
sought this Court’s intervention instead of resorting to the System Board, which it knew from
its own successful motion to dismiss, to have exclusive jurisdiction. To the extent that the
Addington plaintiffs have not already waived their contract-based claims due to their prior
grievance withdrawal, they could be given notice of the arbitral proceedings and allowed
petition to be included as a party to the arbitral process. See Steward v. Mann, 351 F.3d 1338,
1346-47 (11th Cir. 2003).
Even more fundamentally, the TA, pursuant to section XII.B, is open for modification by
USAPA and the Company. (Doc. # 34-2 at 15). Indeed, pursuant to section XII.E.1 of the TA,
it is open for termination, hence it is no firm goal-post to hitch a case or controversy to. (Id.
16).

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

As per the VP of this company they have no intention of using ANYTHING other than the NIC unless the court tells them they have to and that will not happen! Get ready for Janurary folks as it will produce the LOA93 loss and the NIC once and for all then its angry west pilot time. East you reep what you sow and now the chickens will be coming home to roost! Attrition train and the west will be on it and conducting 😉

AWA320

Youve been watching to many "POLAR EXPRESS " reruns! MM!

 

[Bear96]

Bear,

By that I guess you mean that the West got so much in the arb that anything that might resemble fair (not perfect) to both sides (prior to the mess we are in) is unobtainable[.]

No. I meant that the time to "make things work" was before it went to arbitration, and the obligation to make things work (and to follow the ALPA merger policy) was on both sides.

The East seems to have wanted (and still wants) the West to negotiate with itself. Any proposal made by the West is/was greeted with, "Nope, your idea is not DOH. Go back and try again." This is especially misguided because a DOH proposal would not have been consistent with the ALPA merger policy, which both sides had the obligation to follow.

... why do you think the east views the arb as a west "lottery" ticket?

Because the East had, and continues to have, unreasonable expectations and a wrong understanding of the merger, arbitration and legal processes; and because the East has been getting very bad advice from its attorneys and from USAPA leadership.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nic, what about that pesky CBL that mandates DOH with C and R's?

You mean the C&BL's written for one and only one merger? The C&BL that guarantees that any future merger involving US will use negotiation, mediation, binding arbitration to settle any seniority integration dispute? It just gets supplanted earlier than thought.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You mean the C&BL's written for one and only one merger? The C&BL that guarantees that any future merger involving US will use negotiation, mediation, binding arbitration to settle any seniority integration dispute? It just gets supplanted earlier than thought.

Jim

Where's the laugh track? Oh, here it is...

Don't quit your day job...Oh, too late?

 

[PullUp]

The duration language in the TA is entirely exclusive of the date included in LOA93. Go read it, there is specific references to twelve months after single carrier status, just as LOA93 has a specific reference to 01-01-10.

If usapa wins the grievence, you will get your pay retro to 01-01-10, followed by an immediate implementation of the West contract on the east pilots.

You are aware that the company claimed in the Heminway letter, that they could put the west on the east contract, as if they could pick a surviving contract once the NMB granted single carrier status? However, that was a hollow threat because it would have meant hiring dozens of schedulers, ditching PBS contracts etc.. If usapa wins the LOA93 grievence the economics change significantly and the east will find themselves on the West contract virtuallly overnight. That means we are all on the same single collective bargaining agreement, and immediate adherence to the Nic. Further, the company will quit following any other TA language, as they will consider the transition to a single CBA complete. All three legs of the stool are there, single carrier, single contract, single seniority list. Completion of operational pilot integration as per the TA. No min fleets, No min block hours, No restrictions on who can fly which airplane where.

Good luck! Hope you win. You will get a nice big 2010 bonus, then a raise to the contract 2004 payscales, more vacation, better workrules and a better scheduling system.

I don't think so. I did re-read the transition agreement. It says 12 months following the later of: a completed seniority list (currently in dispute...) and a single agreement (contract). Otherwise, the OPI (operational pilot integration) cannot take place and separate operations is specified.
If USAPA wins the LOA93 pay expiration arbitration, the only thing changing is the east payrates and the leverage that USAPA will have in future negotiations.
Cheers.
Oh, and one other thing....the rates will increase well above the AWA 2004 rates.
A330 236/161
B767 211/144
A320 183/125
Cheers and happy holidays.

 

[No Land Green]

Oh, and one other thing....the rates will increase well above the AWA 2004 rates.
A330 236/161
B767 211/144
A320 183/125
Cheers and happy holidays.

Anyone have the AWA 2004 rates handy?

"Hey quit dragging me by the collar, I only asked what your pay rates were".............. 😉

 

[PullUp]

Anyone have the AWA 2004 rates handy?

TOS 141.85/93.61

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

U turn, what a joke. I put as much stock in what Theuer puts out.

 

[No Land Green]

TOS 141.85/93.61

Well if the LOA 93 pay rate arbitration goes the way of USAPA, I guess a sincere "Thank You" is in order to the West for not demanding pay parity for the East.