US Pilots Labor Discussion

[No Land Green]

I am not saying that one has more value than the other, what I am saying is that when you have a pilot that brought a job and one who brought a furlough number (no job) there is really no comparison.

No moving target necessary, what should be done and whats being done since in the industry is people are placed based on where they were the day before. Thats fair. Usapa thru its DOH mantra is saying that its fair to staple almost 90% of the west pilots and dont feel that its a lottery ticket, windfall, or unfair! Its the "its all about me" syndrome.

When this is over we on both side will look back and see just how much we both got screwed then it will sink in that we screwed ourselves.

AWA320

320,

"staple almost 90% of the west pilots" below the bottom East Pilot E. Varini hired 8/30/2004?

Was that the East's offer? Are you sure you are correct? That definitely is not fair at all.

 

[cleardirect]

320,

Do you consider stapling 959 active East Pilots (May 19, 2005) then the 1472 Furloughed East Pilots below bottom West Pilot Dave O'Dell hired 4/4/2005 as "even more wiggle room"? These numbers are all taken directly from the NIC Award, I'm not making them up.

5,098 total East Pilots, 2,431 stapled below Dave O'Dell, that's 47% stapled. If you just take the 959 above, that's 27% of the active pilots at the time.

I sincerely question "compromise" back then......

Where do you get the number 959? At the PID Monda was the junior active pilot. He is placed senior to Dave O Dell.

There were 5098 east pilots on the list. 1691 which were furloughed 33% not 1472. I believe there are only 300 some MDA pilots. There are 1751 pilots below O'Dell. Where are you getting your numbers?
O'Dell 4769 Varini 6520

The question I ask but never get an answer to. How have other mergers handled furloughed pilots? Have other merger placed furloughed pilots below active pilots? That is the typical method.

 

[No Land Green]

Why? Because the Empire-Piedmont process that went down was wrong?

YES

 

[crazystnic]

If they had a job, they wouldn't be furloughed. They had a job at some point in the past, they may again have a job at some point in the future (and rights to any such job before new hires), but at the time they didn't have a job.

I guess one could just as well say that someone never hired would have a job at some point. Does that mean that they have a job at a specific point in time so should be integrated as active pilots?

Jim

*******************************************************8
give me one example where furloughed pilots with as many years of longevity were treated with such contempt. Especially when the attrition that is just starting to take place takes that furloughed pilot to a CPT in short order...

The arbitrator got it wrong, plain and simple... That is why this is so contentious, because it's all so outrageous!

 

[aquagreen73s]

YES

I agree. That merger will always be tainted since there is no shred of objectivity anywhere. Same goes for AMR-TWA, and Congress figured it out after that one and passed McCaskill-Bond. So I must ask you this question (and you know what's coming): "How do you reconcile USAPA doing exactly what Piedmont and AMR did?"

 

[No Land Green]

Where do you get the number 959? At the PID Monda was the junior active pilot. He is placed senior to Dave O Dell.

There were 5098 east pilots on the list. 1691 which were furloughed 33% not 1472. I believe there are only 300 some MDA pilots. There are 1751 pilots below O'Dell. Where are you getting your numbers?
O'Dell 4769 Varini 6520

The question I ask but never get an answer to. How have other mergers handled furloughed pilots? Have other merger placed furloughed pilots below active pilots? That is the typical method.

All numbers taken from the NIC AWARD Document, that NIC Published. I stated that in my original post. So if they are wrong, NIC got them wrong.

Phil Carey, East Merger Committee Memeber told me the same "959" number also. Funny but most people on the East don't know about the "active 959" stapled below Dave O'Dell.

 

[AWA320]

Your legal "experts" are doing you no favor. Look at the route map below, what is the fulcrum of your argument, sir?


What you contributed, thus far, to this arrangement

Nos, all this means nothing my friend! There is no value in your arguement here and this has zero to do with our arguement today.

AWA320

 

[cleardirect]

Of course "COMPROMISE is a 2 way street".

What is it that you want from the East, besides the Nic #? I'm being sincere here, absent the section 22 issue, what do you want from the East?

I think we can both agree that both sides brought hubs and aircraft to the party. Given the relatively static size of both sides, fortunately for the min fleet provision, the only thing either side brings is upward movement through retirements. The East offers retirements more so than the West does, that's pretty much a fact.

The only thing the East has is attrition to offer, sans fleet growth. NIC gave you that, more than he did to the East Pilots.

I/we want what we agreed to. I asked you what you were willing to offer. It is the east that wants a compromise not the west. We offered our compromises during the arbitration.

It is academic anyway because there is no way to compromise. No west to make a deal with. I am just curious what the east thinks we want. What you think is a compromise. I have not heard anything yet.

 

[AWA320]

320,

No, because he is in a hiring pool. If he started employment with a, here goes, a date of hire, then yes, he would be entitled to unemployment or whatever furlough benefit provided by the CBA he/she falls under.

My point is furloughed pilots do have a job, maybe not an active one, but they have a job.

Hold on bro, he/she has interviewed and placed in a pool awaiting a class date. By your own analogy this person would have a job just not an active one right??

AWA320

 

[BoeingBoy]

You don't see my point, but again, you are entitled to your opinion as others are here.

I thought that your point was that a pilot who didn't have a job at the time of the merger (i.e. furloughed) should be and considers him/herself as bring a job to the merger. If that's a misunderstanding on my part I apologize.

Your second paragraph makes no sense since I did say that a pilot NOT hired does NOT bring a job to the merger.

Yes you did say that but my "nonsensical" statement is merely an extension of what you did say - that a pilot furloughed at the time of the merger should be considered as bringing a job to the merger. It's a short step from there to those who haven't been hired yet claiming that they brought a job to the merger.

BTW, I don't know where you got your numbers in an earlier post, but the Nic list has the bottom 1750 East/former CEL pilots on the bottom of the list - Colello and those below him who hadn't permanently left the East list as of when the Nic list was constructed. The East's preferred solution would put the majority of West pilots at the bottom of the list with only the 1997/1998 East hires mixed in among the more senior of those West pilots. I.e., the company furlough of East pilots "stapled" ~25% of the East pilots while USAPA would staple ~80% of West pilots.

Jim

 

[No Land Green]

I agree. That merger will always be tainted since there is no shred of objectivity anywhere. Same goes for AMR-TWA, and Congress figured it out after that one and passed McCaskill-Bond. So I must ask you this question (and you know what's coming): "How do you reconcile USAPA doing exactly what Piedmont and AMR did?"

I think it needs to be fixed by USAPA. At the very least put out for a membership vote. I have a feeling it will be revisited again.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I think it needs to be fixed by USAPA. At the very least put out for a membership vote. I have a feeling it will be revisited again.

Oh, so does putting it out for a majority vote legitimize USAPA's actions in your mind? I guess then the only problem with the Piedmont stapling of Empire was that all the pilots didn't get to vote? Same for AMR-TWA? A vote would have legitimized those travesties?

 

[sumadarson]

One question here Nostradamus, what was the merger/seniority list integration policy when the empire pilots were merged?? If that policy was DOH, then I fail to understand your point. Further if thats the case they you do yourself an even greater disservice by attempting to change/enforce what was once into today. The policy in effect when you and I were merged was NOT doh yet you and many in the east seek to enforce that which was not in effect.

AWA320

Your post,

"No sir a seniority number is a far cry different than a job!"

AWA320


My question.
Your legal "experts" are doing you no favor. Look at the route map below, what is the fulcrum of your argument, sir?

You are trying to answer boeing boys question, trying to avoid the one I asked you. I am not going to play that BS game. Do not ask me a question when I ask you one, that is evasive.

What you brought to the merger

 

[No Land Green]

Hold on bro, he/she has interviewed and placed in a pool awaiting a class date. By your own analogy this person would have a job just not an active one right??

AWA320

No 320, what is your AWA DOH? was it your "pool date" or the day you started class?

We are not talking the same thing here. A furloughed Pilot is not a pre hired pool pilot.

 

[cleardirect]

*******************************************************8
give me one example where furloughed pilots with as many years of longevity were treated with such contempt. Especially when the attrition that is just starting to take place takes that furloughed pilot to a CPT in short order...

The arbitrator got it wrong, plain and simple... That is why this is so contentious, because it's all so outrageous!

Show me another airline that had 16 year furloughs?