US Pilots Labor Discussion

[No Land Green]

Go back and read the LOA 93 transcripts. This is under oath, not rumor or opinion. US Airways was done. Yes all east pilots would have been at the bottom of anohter list, looking for a job or working in another business.

I don't think anyone on Earth, especially Senior Airline Management has ever lied "under oath". LMAO!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the HUGE laugh Clear.........

 

[Pi brat]

I agree 100%, USAir owns nothing of value, industry - leading costs withstanding. Your airline destroyed PSA, I expect no difference with AWA.

I don't know if you noticed, but a certain team of AWA wonder boys is running the show now and have been for almost 7 years, not the guys that pulled down the PSA route network(PSA was not exactly a power house when US bought them, so I don't know if I can even put destroying them on the band of idiots that was running US at the time). 7 years is an eternity in this business, post-deregulation. They didn't merge with US Airways out of benevolence. When they speak of what drove our massive 1% profit margin last year they list CLT first, then PHL.........then what is left of AWA, PHX. They say DCA, which I think we can all agree you would not have gotten without a merger has the best margin of all.

I have a feeling that your thoughts on all of this would have been different is the SLI had been completed in 2008 and you were typing from you sunroom overlooking the beautiful Blue Ridge mountains before you had to drive down to CLT and strap yourself in the left seat.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think anyone on Earth, especially Senior Airline Management has ever lied "under oath". LMAO!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the HUGE laugh Clear.........

Yes everyone is a liar even under oath except east pilots and your theories are always based on facts. But everyone else is a liar. got it.

 

[prechilill]

I've decided to move to HI, AVL is too cold. The 757 is a nice aircraft too.

 

[Pi brat]

Go back and read the LOA 93 transcripts. This is under oath, not rumor or opinion. US Airways was done. Yes all east pilots would have been at the bottom of anohter list, looking for a job or working in another business.

http://www.accountancy.com.pk/newsprac.asp?newsid=260. I thought AWA issued one of these in the 2002 range, but can't find it.

 

[Pi brat]

I've decided to move to HI, AVL is too cold. The 757 is a nice aircraft too.

It can be: KAVL 121554Z 35014G20KT 10SM CLR M06/M16 A3024 RMK AO2 SLP264 T10561156. The coldest I remember out on the ramp was -10 F, and those winds funnel right down the valley.

The 757 is great, but I like the 767 even better.

So, do you think you opinion would be different if you were sitting on your lanai with the SLI completed in 2008? ;-)

 

[prechilill]

It can be: KAVL 121554Z 35014G20KT 10SM CLR M06/M16 A3024 RMK AO2 SLP264 T10561156. The coldest I remember out on the ramp was -10 F, and those winds funnel right down the valley.

The 757 is great, but I like the 767 even better.

So, do you think you opinion would be different if you were sitting on your lanai with the SLI completed in 2008? ;-)

Everyone has an opinion. Mine changes, though. It's probably better to keep separate ops since 100% of the island flying is west. Nobody knows what tomorrow brings, even Doug Parker. And you're right about PSA/ AWA routes- two management teams are doing the exact same thing. Nothing is static, no one is safe.

 

[SparrowHawk]

You forgot " in my opinion" with your unsubstantiated comment above. You people love to make things up, then cite your own BS as fact. Here is what things were really like for AWA in 2005:
Profitable quarters
20 something aircraft on order

Deny away PB, I expect it from you.

I gave my thoughts after reading the financials of both carriers. US had I forget how many Aircraft on order. On order in the airline business is more like a maybe than an actual order IMO.
At time of merger according to the 2005 Annual report AWA Holdings had not had a profitable full year since 2003 when it posted a meager 57 Million for the entire year against 2.572 Billion.

AWA realized operating losses of $120 million and $16 million in 2005 and 2004, respectively, as compared to $37 million of operating income in 2003.

source=2005 Annual Report.

AWA Firm Orders - 13
US Airways Firm Orders - 19
These numbers are almost meaningless as the new US has renegotiated the deal several times.

If you go back and look at the statements of cash flows and the operating income it's pretty clear that neither airline would have survived the fuel spike without at least a C-11 or the more likely C-7. Even with the lowest paid Pilots of the major carriers and similar trailing edge wages for all work groups coupled with 500 Million in Ancillary Revenue the company isn't performing all that well. Cash on hand hasn't grown much since 2005. I hovers around 2.4 Billion which a whole lot better then either airline was pre merger.

 

[Pi brat]

I gave my thoughts after reading the financials of both carriers. US had I forget how many Aircraft on order. On order in the airline business is more like a maybe than an actual order IMO.

A profitable quarter> How many in a row?

From the Nicolau award and opinion:

"US Airways contends that
the 19 extra aircraft America West supposes because they were on firm
order is just that, a supposition, more accurately, a fiction. This is so,
according to US Airways, because they would never have appeared on
the property. The reason, as CEO Parker said in February 2006 and on
other post-May 19, 2005 occasions, is that, without a merger, America
West would have filed for bankruptcy, and cut aircraft and jobs rather
than the reverse. If the Board considers those aircraft, it must
similarly add the 29 aircraft US Airways had on firm order. But instead
of relying on speculative ruminations about the future, a period of
uncertainty for any airline in these times, it is better to concentrate on
the actual aircraft on hand."

As for the profitable quarters for AWA I believe it was one as of May 19, 2005. I think the second quarter ended up being profitable also. Don't have the numbers anymore.

 

[nevergiveup]

You would already know the answer to your own question if you ever bothered to read the ENTIRE Nicolau Award and not just where your name fell on the list.

Sorry guy, I just didn't remember him putting a fence in the award. So only the top 517 east pilots can bid the widebodies. What about FOs, can they bid positions?

 

[nevergiveup]

You would already know the answer to your own question if you ever bothered to read the ENTIRE Nicolau Award and not just where your name fell on the list.

Hey kid, I found the section that Jim was talking about. Sorry to get yur panties all in a wad!

 

[Pi brat]

Sorry guy, I just didn't remember him putting a fence in the award. So only the top 517 east pilots can bid the widebodies. What about FOs, can they bid positions?

Those widebody protections went away with the age 60 rule, there are none for either seat now.

Here are the conditions and restrictions:

"B. Conditions and Restrictions
1. Neither the implementation of the Integrated
System Seniority List nor the implementation or
expiration of any of the accompanying Conditions or
Restrictions shall cause, in and of itself, the
displacement of any pilot from his or her current
position.
2. No pilot on furlough on the effective date of the
Integrated Seniority List may bump/displace an active
pilot as a result, in and of itself, of the
implementation of the Integrated Seniority List. Once
recalled from furlough, the pilot may exercise his or
her seniority without restrictions, except as
otherwise provided in the merged Collective
Bargaining Agreement (e.g., training restrictions) or in
these Conditions and Restrictions.
3. Any pilot who, at the time of implementation of the
In tegrated Seniority List, is in the process of
completing or who has completed initial qualification
for a new category- (e.g., A320 Captain or B757 First
Officer) will be assigned to the position for which he
or she has been trained, regardless of that pilot's
relative standing on the List.
4. The first 161 positions as Captain and the first 262
positions as First Officers on the A330 and B767, or
replacement aircraft as herein defined, shall be
reserved for the top tier pre-merger US Airways pilots
for a period of four years from the date of this Award.
34
However, if the Age 60 limit is changed to Age 65
during the existence of this condition and restriction,
said condition and restriction shall cease to, exist
upon the effective date of the age limit change. As long
as the condition and restriction does exist positions in
excess of the aforesaid quota as well as positions
within the quota if there are insufficient bidders for
said vacancies from the US Airways top tier group shall
be allocated pursuant to the Seniority List as shall
positions within this quota upon the expiration of this
restriction.
5. A330, B767 or similar aircraft that replace the existing
A330 and B767 aircraft set forth in Condition 4 that no
longer remain in the fleet are "replacement" aircraft
within the meaning of Condition 4. All other aircraft, of
whatever type, are "new" aircraft, positions on which
are to be allocated to the pre-merger US Airways and
America West pilot groups, respectively, 2:1 on widebodies
and 1:1 on narrow-bodies for a period of four
years from the date of this Award. Thereafter,
positions are to be allocated pursuant to the Seniority
List.
6. The allocation of Captain and First Officer positions on
the EMB-190 shall be in accordance with the Eischen
Award dated September 5, 2006. Any dispute as to the
applicability or interpretation of that Award shall be
referred, at the request of either party, to Chairman
Eischen.
7. The Conditions and Restrictions imposed by the Kagel
Award, effective October 31, 1988, shall not be affected
by the foregoing Conditions and Restrictions.
8. The Board shall retain jurisdiction in accordance with
Section H. 5 .b. of the ALPA Merger Policy to resolve
any disputes over the meaning or interpretation of this
Award. This retention of jurisdiction shall terminate
when all provisions of the Award have been satisfied.
In the event the Chairman becomes unavailable or
unwilling to serve to resolve such disputes, the Merger
Committees will agree on a replacement Chairman or
will select one by the alternate strike method from the
most recent ALPA list of seniority integrations
35
arbitrators. In the event one of the Pilot Neutrals
becomes unable or unwilling to serve on the
Arbitration Board to resolve such disputes, the
Chairman, after consultation with the Parties, shall
decide how to proceed. In any such arbitration, if there
is a dispute between the methodology contained in the
Award and the accompanying Integrated Seniority List
or any other list purportedly using such methodology,
the Seniority List prevails."

You see that #4 is gone because of the age 60 rule, so the way I read it that makes #5 moot.

 

[LSS]

You see that #4 is gone because of the age 60 rule, so the way I read it that makes #5 moot.
[/quote]

PI that is precisely the way I remembered it!... Thanks.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You see that #4 is gone because of the age 60 rule, so the way I read it that makes #5 moot.

Nope, #5 was still valid. The passage of 4 years from the date of the award without implimentation of the Nic is what made it moot.

The first part of #5 regarding the widebodies wasn't triggered within the 4 years because the Nic wasn't implemented. If the Nic had been implemented the split of seats on "new" widebodies would have been triggered by the A332's (maybe that will give you a clue to why the westies say the east "stole" west jobs by delaying the Nic). The latter part may have been triggered - one would have to track the leaving and arriving dates of narrowbody planes to know - but since the Nic hasn't been implemented it was moot. After the 4 years passed from the date of the Nic award #5 lapsed in it's entirety.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

If you go back and look at the statements of cash flows and the operating income it's pretty clear that neither airline would have survived the fuel spike without at least a C-11 or the more likely C-7.

You analysis does not take into account the prospect of increased revenue at AWA due to the shutdown of USAirways (which was imminent given their very nearly missing making payroll) and the added possibility of AWA acquiring the assets of USAirways at auction thus improving their revenue outlook. It is very likely that investors would have flooded AWA with cash to build a replacement to USAirways if they had only known how the inevitable rehash of failed policies would turn out 7 years later by allowing portions of it to continue.

USAirways did not have any possibilities beyond imminent liquidation. It was a rusted out Pinto that US was still making huge payments on.