US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Res Judicata]

So did the west run to SCOTUS with Addington.. You wanted to bring that up, in the interest of fairness, didn't you?

The difference was that SCOTUS could have ended it either way. Seham just delayed getting to the answer. Apples and oranges. The East doesn't want the question asked because I think the "leaders" already know the answer....and they hate it like poison. I don't blame them. Can you imagine being personally responsible for the loss of over a BILLION dollars pay to you colleagues? The tru is still the truth however, regardless of he pain it causes.

I think Silver is effectively going to end this. Probably by April from what I hear. The question is going to be what the company's response will be. More fake wishy washy bs where they pretend to not understand what's happening or will that scum bag prick Doug Parker finally do the right thing, grow a set and attempt to be a leader. We'll see.

 

[SparrowHawk]

will that scum bag prick Doug Parker finally do the right thing, grow a set and attempt to be a leader. We'll see.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. 😀

 

[Harry Callahan]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. 😀

Neither would I.

 

[nevergiveup]

When compared to the good news, our Nic arguments for and against are not even trivial.

 

[fatherabraham]

Uh oh. According to Galations you're screwed.

Boo Boo,

Per those 4 verses or any 4 you may be right. Thankfully we have many over many years to attach our faith.
Just keep studying , your on the right track ;-)

FA

 

[nic4us]

So did the west run to SCOTUS with Addington.. You wanted to bring that up, in the interest of fairness, didn't you?

In addition to the points Res Judica makes, the request for writ of certiorari did not delay negotiations.

usapa was free to negotiate the day the 9th ruled. Problem for them was that the SCOTUS did not take the case, leaving the company in no place to accept usapa's illegal demands.

Seeham fighting the DJ in no uncertain way cost at least a year because of extenuating circumstances with the murder of the AZ district senior judge, during the attack on the AZ congresswoman's life.


In any event, there is no way to lay any of the blame for the massive concesions the east pilot group has piled on the company on the West.

 

[luvn737s]

I don't view the east as an enemy, but I think that a substantial number of pilots on both sides do feel that way. I'm as open and objective in this situation as I possibly can be, but the preponderance of fault lies with the east die hards. Any attempt to replace the NIC by force of the majority is illegal in my limited understanding of the RLA and it is immoral by any definition or standard of ethics because it boils down to an attempt to break a binding agreement which will knowingly and certainly bring harm to the other party (the west). I don't think it demonstrates a bias to read the RLA and all of the court filings related to this situation and conclude that USAPA is on the wrong side of the law. Furthermore, if you could find place where I situationally applied my standard that breaking an agreement without the other party's consent is perfectly moral in one circumstance but immoral in this circumstance you would certainly have proof that I was biased. Instead you have my direct statement that I think it is immoral and wrong in every circumstance (under true duress might be one possible exception I would consider).

I'd like to add to your thoughts.

Perhaps the leadership originally felt it could circumvent the Nic by forming USAPA and were ignorant of it's affects on the west. They failed to articulate what they were trying to do and allowed the natural tribal tendencies take over and develop into a civil war. If the east is given the benefit of that doubt, then perhaps with real leadership, they can be shown how unity trumps the go-nowhere strategy that Cleary has promoted and sustained through vilifying the west.

Will the east choose a viable alternative to the not-so-merry go-round of leaders they have churned through in the past and pick Ferguson and Koontz? Or will they choose to risk it with McKee and his unstable personality and allow the APA to disembowel the US pilot group while USAPA remains on the sidelines as irrelevant as ever?

 

[SparrowHawk]

I'd like to add to your thoughts.

Perhaps the leadership originally felt it could circumvent the Nic by forming USAPA and were ignorant of it's affects on the west. They failed to articulate what they were trying to do and allowed the natural tribal tendencies take over and develop into a civil war. If the east is given the benefit of that doubt, then perhaps with real leadership, they can be shown how unity trumps the go-nowhere strategy that Cleary has promoted and sustained through vilifying the west.

Will the east choose a viable alternative to the not-so-merry go-round of leaders they have churned through in the past and pick Ferguson and Koontz? Or will they choose to risk it with McKee and his unstable personality and allow the APA to disembowel the US pilot group while USAPA remains on the sidelines as irrelevant as ever?

The CIA calls this "Blowback" or The Law of unintended consequences. Ignoring your rhetoric on the current crop of candidates I think the road to common ground starts with a very real prospect of a merger with AA where ALL US Airways pilots career expectations are at risk. The road IMO should not be one with standard "We've always Done it this way" mentality and approach.

A few days back I made an observation that the US Airways of today started the day the Merger closed in September of 2005. If that date became everyone's hire date all seniority would be equal and additional criteria would be required to determine seniority fairly and equitably. What if you use total flight hours regardless the carrier? Years as a pilot? IOW make the criteria carrier agnostic. I don't know what the list would look like but it would sure get the Nic off the table in a way that would allow everyone to save face. A fact that can't be ignored is somehow you're going to have to make a compromise not appear to be a capitulation by one side or the other. The other potential advantage of having a unique method of determining seniority would be at merger time should one occur.

I'm clearly not a pilot but I sure would like to see some solidarity and a concerted effort to bring the fight to Mr Parker instead of each other.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

A few days back I made an observation that the US Airways of today started the day the Merger closed in September of 2005. If that date became everyone's hire date all seniority would be equal and additional criteria would be required to determine seniority fairly and equitably.

In light of west pilots calling for a viewpoint that September of 2005 represented a "new airline" and all pilots should consider themselves new hires, I brought up that we should then adopt new hire policy. They all agreed (It was a PHX Christmas fundraiser) until I reminded them of the new hire policy of both carriers, US and A&W, was that of ordering all new hires by date of birth. Most quickly realized that date of birth would yield a list similar, if not almost identical, to a date of hire list. At which point, they all, to a person, departed the premises. Talk about people who cannot deal with reality.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Two problems SH,

First, USAPA insured that there won't be a negotiated compromise between the two sides by eliminating separate union structures. There is no one to legally negotiate for them other than USAPA. The east thought that their majority could let them do whatever they wanted - I'm sure you remember all the east "majority rules" type posts.

Second, making potpourri of both lists then ordering individual pilots by some "neutral" method would not be accepted by management due to the training cost it would cause. You'd have formerly senior captains on each side suddenly junior, junior pilots suddenly senior, mid-range pilots either junior or senior, etc. The only possibly acceptable way to accomplish that is one rate of pay for everyone and the company isn't about to pay a rate for 340 planes that a relative handful of widebodies currently pay. So there'd have to be over $9 in pay rate cuts on the widebodies for every $1 increase on the narrowbodies - after averaging out current captain and FO rates. So everyone would end up making bottom of the barrel pay rates - basically current east A320/737 rates or less - just to subsidize the increase for the FO's. Not exactly something with a great chance of passing ratification.

This will ultimately be settled by the courts - as you see from the stances of the candidates for USAPA office, it's either DOH or NIC. If that prevents a merger, that's the way the cookie crumbles. If it leaves US pilots dangling in the wind for a future merger, again that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Jim

 

[SparrowHawk]

Two problems SH,

First, USAPA insured that there won't be a negotiated compromise between the two sides by eliminating separate union structures. There is no one to legally negotiate for them other than USAPA. The east thought that their majority could let them do whatever they wanted - I'm sure you remember all the east "majority rules" type posts.

Second, making potpourri of both lists then ordering individual pilots by some "neutral" method would not be accepted by management due to the training cost it would cause. You'd have formerly senior captains on each side suddenly junior, junior pilots suddenly senior, mid-range pilots either junior or senior, etc. The only possibly acceptable way to accomplish that is one rate of pay for everyone and the company isn't about to pay a rate for 340 planes that a relative handful of widebodies currently pay. So there'd have to be over $9 in pay rate cuts on the widebodies for every $1 increase on the narrowbodies - after averaging out current captain and FO rates. So everyone would end up making bottom of the barrel pay rates - basically current east A320/737 rates or less - just to subsidize the increase for the FO's. Not exactly something with a great chance of passing ratification.

This will ultimately be settled by the courts - as you see from the stances of the candidates for USAPA office, it's either DOH or NIC. If that prevents a merger, that's the way the cookie crumbles. If it leaves US pilots dangling in the wind for a future merger, again that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Jim

It was just a thought. Why they decided to go the legal route is still beyond my comprehension. As we've seen, in most litigation the only winners are the lawyers. BTW has Lee Seeham EVER won an aviation case for a Labor Union?

 

[BoeingBoy]

The legal route was the only path available to the west pilots after USAPA eliminated separate representation. It was either that or capitulate to the east's demands. As for Seeham, you've apparently done a lot more research on his history than I have. What amazes me is the apparent number of supposedly smart people who bought into his line of reasoning without looking at all sides of it. Yes, seniority can be negotiable but you have easties spouting that and in almost the same breath say there isn't enough money that Parker to offer to make them give up on DOH because pay can change with the next contract but seniority is forever. How can they believe that seniority (which is negotiable) is going to last forever when pay (which is negotiable) can be fleeting.

Jim

 

[SparrowHawk]

The legal route was the only path available to the west pilots after USAPA eliminated separate representation. It was either that or capitulate to the east's demands. As for Seeham, you've apparently done a lot more research on his history than I have. What amazes me is the apparent number of supposedly smart people who bought into his line of reasoning without looking at all sides of it. Yes, seniority can be negotiable but you have easties spouting that and in almost the same breath say there isn't enough money that Parker to offer to make them give up on DOH because pay can change with the next contract but seniority is forever. How can they believe that seniority (which is negotiable) is going to last forever when pay (which is negotiable) can be fleeting.

Jim

What I find incredibly interesting is that when i raise questions regarding Lee Seeham and his track record all I hear is Crickets. Not even the most ardent to the death DOH USAPA types have word one to say on the topic of his work or track record. I mean if you're going to go to war legally speaking wouldn't you hire the best of the best with a track record of actually WINNING a few cases.

I did find this on lineAMFA v United

I also found out that he is General Counsel for AMFA. Wonder what his role was in the NW Strike debacle?

 

[Res Judicata]

It was just a thought. Why they decided to go the legal route is still beyond my comprehension. As we've seen, in most litigation the only winners are the lawyers. BTW has Lee Seeham EVER won an aviation case for a Labor Union?

Well then you must have e attention span of a gnat if you're still confused why the west went the "legal" route as you say. They had no other options. None. Zero.nada.nil. Nothing. Too bad the only winner was the scumbag Seham but you know who DIDN'T win? The East and their chief terrorist Cleary. The West was stripped of all options other than to roll over and take it. They decided not to. It's cost the East pilots over a BILLION dollars in lost W2 pay.

That number will probably double but you know what? F$&@ Em. Who cares? They can choke on their own misery. Nobody out here has even the slightest inclination to take their boots of the drowning necks of the average East pilot. Quite the opposite. We'll stuff rocks in theirs pockets until every last one of them sinks into the black water of hopelessness before we give in to one singular iota of their demands. They created this mess, they can retire in it for all we care.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Well then you must have e attention span of a gnat if you're still confused why the west went the "legal" route as you say. They had no other options. None. Zero.nada.nil. Nothing. Too bad the only winner was the scumbag Seham but you know who DIDN'T win? The East and their chief terrorist Cleary. The West was stripped of all options other than to roll over and take it. They decided not to. It's cost the East pilots over a BILLION dollars in lost W2 pay.

That number will probably double but you know what? F$&@ Em. Who cares? They can choke on their own misery. Nobody out here has even the slightest inclination to take their boots of the drowning necks of the average East pilot. Quite the opposite. We'll stuff rocks in theirs pockets until every last one of them sinks into the black water of hopelessness before we give in to one singular iota of their demands. They created this mess, they can retire in it for all we care.

I understand why the "west" filed suit. I got that a while ago. Name calling and rhetoric aside I think this points out the danger involved when one party tries to bludgeon the other. No one likes it when somebody tries to shove a deal up your assets. Did the East really think you'd bend over and say "Thank you Sir, May I have another"? The cold hard reality is that failing a merger you'd be junior at some other airline or out of the industry. I know it hurts to face reality sometimes. Both groups failed miserably in this regard.

That said I still feel that all things considered Date of Hire is ultimately the way to go in that it's arbitrary and not really subject to manipulation. You either worked for the company or you didn't. End of Story. The problem however is the arbitrary nature when fairness is factored in. So how to be fair? West pilots (I Assume) would argue that the Nicolau Awards was fair. I've read the decision and it was NOT Mr Nicolau's best work IMO. As an observer with some knowledge of how things work I think DOH with the appropriate "fences" and length of time in place would have been a better way to go and would have kept the whole thing out of arbitration, the courts and squarely where it belongs which is Doug Parker's lap a long time ago. Now it's shoulda, Coulda, Woulda and very shortly after the elections you'll essentially be no further along than you were in September '05. NO ONE knows better what it's like to be a pilot then another pilot and to turn over your careers to an 83 year old arbitrator with diminishing skills and then the courts is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever witnessed.