US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767jetz]

Ummmm, what?

he's delusional again. Probably fell off the wagon.

Keep lurking, meanwhile your predictions with Continental and your airline are proven wrong. Let us know when your merger comes out of the swamp will you?

Hey Clax, what about your predictions of more UA furloughs? Did you see that the no furlough protections were extended along with other T&PA sections that were expiring? Did you see what we got in return for the one thing they let expire? Did you know that Smisek has been showing up personally to NMB brokered negotiations in order to move the process along? Did you hear that we are 90% done with the scheduling sections and will then move on to the final "big 2" of scope and pay? Did you know about our recent leverage we got since the company came to us for relief on training and SLI timelines? I guess not!

The only prediction I had that did not come true is when I said that by the end of 2011 we would either have a contract or be on strike. That was in response to the idea that furlough protection was expiring and UA would start to furlough. I stated that it wouldn't matter. I was wrong on the date, but not the fact that it didn't matter, since furlough protections have been extended, as well as flying ratios, block hour protections, and base closures. So all is still well here at UAL for now.

My other predictions are still on track, including that we will have an industry leading contract LONG before you see the end of LOA 93; our f/o's will all be making more than most of your captains; USAPA will continue to lose court case after court case and continue to prove the ineffectiveness of your sham union; and last but not least that you will not ever see a DOH integration. (Something I've been telling you since our failed acquisition attempt of USAir in 2000.)

Let me know when you are right about something. Anything!

BTW, I see you stopped posting UAL MEC updates since they now talk about JCBA progress and unity with the CAL MEC, proving you wrong once again. 😛

 

[nic4us]

Would that be like the 9th clerks who said scurry along now and call back when the big bad wolf actually shows?

FA

Um..clerks...no...

That would be like the 9th circuit JUDGES who warned uscaba of what would happen IF they stick to their game plan of causing harm to the West.

Or, it would be like the 9th circuit JUDGE who went way out of his way to write a scathing dissenting opinion, practically calling usapa scabs outright.

Lets not forget about Wake, who called Seeham and usapa a very pleasant version of effin lying cheating scumbags, that proved his abilities as a level headed arbitor.

Also, lets not forget the judge in North Carolina, who threw usapa so far out of his court, the RICO filing scabs couldn't come up with a way to spin their loss.

Now we have a judge in New York...I am not going to read his decision. It is obvious to me the scab union is nothing but big time lossers. No need to have more judges tell me the same.

 

[Phoenix]

The "golden children", tell me how that works. As far as I can see, Delta ALPA was run by Delta pilots elected by Delta pilots. We used the same shared ALPA resources such as R&I, E&FA, and negotiators.

If you didn't notice, my pension was terminated also. When we went into bankruptcy, our pension was less than 50% funded. We made a decision early on to include the pension into our discussions as completely intertwined with any other items. We also formed a Strike Committee, a decision made by Delta pilots and staffed by Delta pilots, to introduce uncertainty into the process. What would we do if our contract were rejected? No one else knew.

By wrapping everything up into one negotiation, we got a bankruptcy claim of $2.1 billion (sold for a net gain of $1.3 billion) and a cash payment of $650 million. This was all from strategy cooked up by Delta pilots and executed by Delta pilots.

As consolidation approached, we embraced the concept of a merger and worked with management to accelerate their merger benefits and make contractual gains. The total value of a four year deal was about $2 billion and now puts our DC-9 captains as higher paid than your A-330. That was a strategy cooked up by Delta pilots and executed by Delta pilots.

My point is not to infer that we are somehow better than you. It is just that you guys have been obsessed with internal fighting (both before and after the merger) that you fail to concentrate on the real issues at hand. Delta pilots are not the golden children, it is just we have tried to focus on reality and getting money from management while you guys seem focused on yelling at each other.

That is where you are today. I really don't care if you think that the Nicolau award was unfair. Too bad, boo hoo for you. The whole purpose of an arbitration is to have someone make the decision when you can't come to a mutual agreement. Of course you wanted date of hire, that's why you went to arbitration. If you are really one year away from retirement then you can't have been in the industry for that many years and not noted that arbitrations rarely produce satisfaction to either side. Somehow, you guys created some entitlement to act as the final say in the arbitration. Guess what, you don't have a say.

You all will never achieve your date of hire list. Give it up, accept your fate like a man and then move on and try to make your situation better. As it is now, you have unilaterally disarmed yourselves and given management an unlimited free pass to ignore you.

Quit blaming Nicolau, ALPA, golden boys, biased judges, and whomever else is on your blame list. Pick your sorry butt off the mat and then work to improve your contract. If you want to fix things fix it yourself and quit acting like an idiot teenager and blaming the rest of the world for the troubles you created for yourself.

Your wife called. Said its time to leave the neighbors alone and come home for dinner.

 

[oscarjazz]

Your wife called. Said its time to leave the neighbors alone and come home for dinner.

Your wife called. Said its time to quit acting like a crybaby and go get a pay raise.

 

[azdryheat]

The T&PA extensions were not a win for UA pilots. The opening of CO and UA bases in each others backyards just lets the company drag this out while getting what they want. While I agree that UA pilots are (and will continue to be) further along than USAPA. My prediction is that there will not be a contract by the end of 2012 (or strike).


Hey Clax, what about your predictions of more UA furloughs? Did you see that the no furlough protections were extended along with other T&PA sections that were expiring? Did you see what we got in return for the one thing they let expire? Did you know that Smisek has been showing up personally to NMB brokered negotiations in order to move the process along? Did you hear that we are 90% done with the scheduling sections and will then move on to the final "big 2" of scope and pay? Did you know about our recent leverage we got since the company came to us for relief on training and SLI timelines? I guess not!

The only prediction I had that did not come true is when I said that by the end of 2011 we would either have a contract or be on strike. That was in response to the idea that furlough protection was expiring and UA would start to furlough. I stated that it wouldn't matter. I was wrong on the date, but not the fact that it didn't matter, since furlough protections have been extended, as well as flying ratios, block hour protections, and base closures. So all is still well here at UAL for now.

My other predictions are still on track, including that we will have an industry leading contract LONG before you see the end of LOA 93; our f/o's will all be making more than most of your captains; USAPA will continue to lose court case after court case and continue to prove the ineffectiveness of your sham union; and last but not least that you will not ever see a DOH integration. (Something I've been telling you since our failed acquisition attempt of USAir in 2000.)

Let me know when you are right about something. Anything!

BTW, I see you stopped posting UAL MEC updates since they now talk about JCBA progress and unity with the CAL MEC, proving you wrong once again. 😛
[/quote]

 

[Move2CLT]

Your wife called. Said its time to quit acting like a crybaby and go get a pay raise.

Well played.

 

[767one]

The "golden children", tell me how that works. As far as I can see, Delta ALPA was run by Delta pilots elected by Delta pilots. We used the same shared ALPA resources such as R&I, E&FA, and negotiators.

If you didn't notice, my pension was terminated also. When we went into bankruptcy, our pension was less than 50% funded. We made a decision early on to include the pension into our discussions as completely intertwined with any other items. We also formed a Strike Committee, a decision made by Delta pilots and staffed by Delta pilots, to introduce uncertainty into the process. What would we do if our contract were rejected? No one else knew.

By wrapping everything up into one negotiation, we got a bankruptcy claim of $2.1 billion (sold for a net gain of $1.3 billion) and a cash payment of $650 million. This was all from strategy cooked up by Delta pilots and executed by Delta pilots.

As consolidation approached, we embraced the concept of a merger and worked with management to accelerate their merger benefits and make contractual gains. The total value of a four year deal was about $2 billion and now puts our DC-9 captains as higher paid than your A-330. That was a strategy cooked up by Delta pilots and executed by Delta pilots.

My point is not to infer that we are somehow better than you. It is just that you guys have been obsessed with internal fighting (both before and after the merger) that you fail to concentrate on the real issues at hand. Delta pilots are not the golden children, it is just we have tried to focus on reality and getting money from management while you guys seem focused on yelling at each other.

That is where you are today. I really don't care if you think that the Nicolau award was unfair. Too bad, boo hoo for you. The whole purpose of an arbitration is to have someone make the decision when you can't come to a mutual agreement. Of course you wanted date of hire, that's why you went to arbitration. If you are really one year away from retirement then you can't have been in the industry for that many years and not noted that arbitrations rarely produce satisfaction to either side. Somehow, you guys created some entitlement to act as the final say in the arbitration. Guess what, you don't have a say.

You all will never achieve your date of hire list. Give it up, accept your fate like a man and then move on and try to make your situation better. As it is now, you have unilaterally disarmed yourselves and given management an unlimited free pass to ignore you.

Quit blaming Nicolau, ALPA, golden boys, biased judges, and whomever else is on your blame list. Pick your sorry butt off the mat and then work to improve your contract. If you want to fix things fix it yourself and quit acting like an idiot teenager and blaming the rest of the world for the troubles you created for yourself.

Sorry I did not reply sooner. I'm a really old guy and I fell asleep half way through your post. Just woke up but can't finish the post because I have work to do. They just bought another of my 4 day Dub trips for training. I'm getting really frustrated because I wanted to visit every pub in Publin er Dublin before I retire but they keep buying my damn trips and paying me to stay home.

 

[Phoenix]

Your wife called. Said its time to quit acting like a crybaby and go get a pay raise.

That was short enough I stayed awake, but no sweetie, that wasn't a new call. You hit redial on your voice mail. xxoo

 

[Move2CLT]

That was short enough I stayed awake, but no sweetie, that wasn't a new call. You hit redial on your voice mail. xxoo

That's stupid.

You lose.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Compass Correction Coalition Update (Careless, Wreckless, and Cavalier!): March 12, 2012

Let's get this straight…

Some of you out there have heard about a “Whisper Campaign” being fostered by a few angry East pilots, who supported Bill McKee. The idea seems to be that we all vote to elect Eric Ferguson, the Leader of the Army of Leonidas; the very personification of Nicolau. That is Step One…now, follow along.

Next, they plan to immediately recall the newly and duly elected President Ferguson; that is Step Two. Finally, they get the entire election rerun and their "Rock Star," Charlotte Chairman Bill McKee, is swept into office via the new election. We are not joking here; certain guys are actually advocating this as a viable strategy, starting with Mike Cleary. Mike just cannot wrap his mind around the fact that his presidency was a disaster and his buddy Bill McKee isn’t going to be the next USAPA President.

Does this complicated, possibly illegal and risky idea even make sense? It does too the loyal followers of Mike Cleary. No amount of pain and damage is too much for others to suffer when it comes to assuring that Mike has some kind of full-time, flight pay loss position. That will not happen, with either Hummel or Ferguson; simple.

The idea is to use Billy Glynn’s “Phillypilot” website to create a whisper campaign and to keep the idea going. Bill Glynn is the same guy, who only a couple of weeks ago excoriated anyone, including Gary Hummel, who dared even talk with Eric Ferguson….now, we are supposed to vote for him?

Perhaps this makes a lot of senses if you are "Biff," from “Back To The Future;" it makes no sense to us! If you are a rational and half-way intelligent human being, it reeks of desperation, cowardice and a longing to cling to power at all costs. There are many ways it could go wrong.


Billy Glynn-B767driver@aol.com, who is, we might mention, a USAPA Communications Committee Member, wrote the following:

“Another reason Hummel is also not to be trusted is because he shades his words about 'Date of Hire' and the Nicolau Award so that he is leaving himself some wiggle room. Guys are not stupid. They understand that he just doesn't seem to want to fight for us and has other priorities.”

It is the epitome of hypocrisy to accuse the DCA reps, Eric Jordan of PHL and EVP Gary Hummel of sometimes voting with the West, (on issues totally unrelated to seniority) and then to advocate that our pilots vote to elect the West Pilot, of All West Pilots! It should also be noted that the Officers, including the EVP, do not vote at the meetings. This whole unfortunate turn of events is unbelievable and defies logic. If you think this election/recall/election idea is good…. then there is a bridge in Brooklyn that we would like to sell you.

Gary Hummel, Steve Bradford and Steve Smyser support Date of Hire unconditionally. The question is in the hands of the courts. They will fight it in Phoenix, in San Francisco at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, and up to and including the United States Supreme Court, if that is what our pilots tell them to do.

The Officers do not vote on this issue, the BPR does. The Board members then speak to express the will of their constituent pilots. The Officers are constitutionally mandated to follow the wishes and votes of the BPR. The only guy who ignored that hierarchy was Mike Cleary! He filed law suits, (we just lost that one) - without a Board vote and ignored five BPR majority votes and meetings, about where to move an office.

Gary Hummel, Steve Bradford and Steve Smyser are committed to go the distance to follow the dictates and binding votes of your elected representatives, to see this seniority fight out in the courts until the very end. They will only stop the fight when of the pilots tell them to stop.

They will abide by, support, and follow the will of our pilots as defined and enumerated in the USAPA Constitution and Bylaws.

IF USAPA PILOTS WANT TO TAKE THE SENIORITY DISPUTE ALL THE WAY TO THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT THAN THAT IS WHERE IT IS GOING!


They intend the pursuit of USAPA rights to a Date of Hire integration, because it is right, objective and ultimately fair to all. That is all there is to be said about that.

Anyway you cut it, voting for the leader of the Army of Leonidas, only to attempt to recall him and have another election is definitely a careless and reckless act. It could go wrong on many levels and it is not a responsible path for those seeking honest representation. Moreover, this is a cavalier approach to meeting the needs of the most vulnerable (aka The Juniority) on the East property; it is doomed to fail!


Bear in mind as you read below: it takes a minimum of FIVE MONTHS to get a Recall done. The following is our best guess about what will actually happen should Ferguson be elected.

President Ferguson, on Day One, decides to give up the east Change of Control (which does not protect west pilots anyway) in exchange for the NIC. This is HUGE in a merger for Parker, because it makes us cheaper and expendable. While he legally may not be able to do this – he could do it anyway…Mike Cleary has set that precedent with his impromptu visit to Parker during the announced UAL deal. The ultimate outcome would only be known after years in court. The damages to the east pilots would be staggering. What judge is going to put US Airways into potential bankruptcy to right the wronged east pilots?

President Eric Ferguson, on Day Two, could hire Polsinelli Shughart PC, the West Plaintiff Law firm, with your dues money to be USAPA’s law firm. Remember Mike Cleary hired the O’Dwyer law firm, without BPR approval, to file a law suit against the company. That’s the Eastern District of NY filing that was dismissed a few days ago, a summary judgment against USAPA without even going to oral argument or formal briefs; a total strike out.


USAPA President Eric Ferguson would have full access to all internal USAPA legal documents, privileged information and legal strategy in the East / West litigation to date. This is a fact, no matter what law firm represents USAPA.

The USAPA President, in this case Mr. Ferguson, gets to appoint all committee members and chairmen. Mike Cleary appointed two negotiating committee members, Communication Chairman, Merger Committee members without BPR approval or prior notice. The precedent has been set. How about an all West - Merger and Negotiating committee?

We don’t know about you, but Woody Menear and Eric Rowe believe this is stupid and extremely risky. Anybody who would suggest east pilots should vote for Ferguson MUST have some ulterior motive. Some of our union leaders/candidates are thinking of their own interest, in contrast to what is best for the pilots. Not only that, but this insane scheme makes a mockery of the whole election process.

We say, if you support Eric Ferguson, then vote for him and live with it. If you do not, then vote for Hummel, Bradford and Smyser. If you do not vote at all, you’re voting for Team Tempe!
Why don’t you ask Bill McKee who he is voting for?

Your “Destiny” is in your own hands VOTE- Hummel, Bradford and Smyser.

Fraternally,


Eric Rowe PHL-A330
Woody Menear PHL-7i

 

[Move2CLT]

Men of genius and their hair-brained schemes.

You can't make this up.

 

[fatherabraham]

Compass Correction Coalition Update (Careless, Wreckless, and Cavalier!): March 12, 2012

Let's get this straight…



Fraternally,


Eric Rowe PHL-A330
Woody Menear PHL-7i

CM,

Easy yes or no questions to best of your knowledge . Does CCC speak for GH or above 2 signatures? Are they to be his new comm folk if elected?

Why not a signature from GH if he endorses above or a statement from GH that states the all cap ( unconditionally per majority vote ) section in your cut/paste post?

FA

 

[luvthe9]

Compass Correction Coalition Update (Careless, Wreckless, and Cavalier!): March 12, 2012
Your “Destiny” is in your own hands VOTE- Hummel, Bradford and Smyser.

Fraternally,


Eric Rowe PHL-A330
Woody Menear PHL-7i

Oh no, you guys got caught, now you are in the back peddle mode this group is sick of you guys, we are all voting for Ferguson and Koontz. Your pathetic group is finished you are worse then any westie. YOUR PUPPET IS NOT GETTING IN.!!!!!!!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yeah, telling the truth is a crime among the faithful...

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

Oh no, you guys got caught, now you are in the back peddle mode this group is sick of you guys, we are all voting for Ferguson and Koontz. Your pathetic group is finished you are worse then any westie. YOUR PUPPET IS NOT GETTING IN.!!!!!!!

Bravo 9!! Bravo!!!

I've had a few easties in the jumpseat tell me that they've voted for the west slate. I truly cannot believe that the hate is so great out there between easties that they'll vote west.

You guys NEVER fail to surprise.

Here's to Eric, Jeff, and Ken.