What's new

US Pilots Labor Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'd say you're right for a DL/AA merger since the combination would be almost guaranteed to be in ST. I'm assuming that a US/AA merger would be in OW, which might keep BA on the sidelines although they could provide some revenue guarantees much as was offered to JAL. I see TPG as being the dark horse - very little has been said about them since the possibility of AA not emerging as a stand-alone carrier was raised. They could provide AA with equity financing if they thought it would be a profitable investment and they have a history of doing that. That could allow AA to sweeten the pot for the unsecured creditors without having to give most of the new stock to equity investors or take on so much debt.

Jim
 
How was the distribution method obtained?

I think the knitting lady used a ouija board or a dart board or pin the tail on the donkey. However you look at it, it wasn't thought out at all - unless you consider it was screwed up intentionally to piss us off.
 
Never been to a merger, eh, junior? I never said that now did I? The key here is LOS, which equates to DOH, right?....so you want to cash in your lottery ticket and leap frog by 15 yrs....not gonna happen!

breeze

Rather than cash in any alleged lottery ticket I would just like to have my left seat back, flying with the pilots I used to fly with who are currently furloughed or now working on the east. I would like for all of us to be senior to the third listers and formerly furloughed east pilots who weren't here when AWA acquired soon to be liquidated US Airways.

I would simply like to be in the same relative position I was when this whole debacle started (oh, wait, legally per the Nicolau list I am) and to be made whole for all that was taken from myself and my west peers over this tragic seven years.

Lottery ticket..... You're a hoot!
 
A couple of points here Breeze. LOS may or may not equal DOH. In the case of many east pilots their LOS may be half or less time than their DOH. Than you resort to the often quoted lottery ticket bile, as if the west was awarded incredible sums of money. Reality = the west merely kept their relative position that was awarded by a power (the arbitrator) recognized to integrate the two lists and was not purchased over the counter on a one in a million gamble. One may contrast this factual reality with a similar reality of a USAPIAN DOH lottery dream that is much more like a one in a million huge gain for the east. It only seems like a lottery to you because you have 15 year plus LOS junior FO's and the west is much more like all other airlines and a 1995 AWA hire is a line holding CAPT. In USAPIA where you have sadly had to reside for the past 15 years, all OAL which have similar 1995 hire dates as Line holding Capt.s are also lottery ticket winners. I guess one might say there is some reality in that in how ones progression may or may not produce expected career progression but the NIC is not the lottery ticket. If I am a 1995 AWA line holding CAPT. and upgraded in 2000 did I win the lottery if I am still a line holding CAPT? Please define the lottery win and what gains this CAPT. was granted that define lottery win. I would define a 15 year junior FO on the date of the merger suddenly becoming senior to a number (majority) of line holding CAPT's an infinitely closer description to a true lottery win than the NIC, which is in fact what USAPA is trying to do is it not? Win a lottery by majority vote? I must say I do not like you chances or all of the risk you have assumed and the cumulative losses you have tallied to date by trying to win the lottery. How about you cease projecting your lottery dreams on the west!


Well said, however, Breeze is either too stupid to comprehend this or, as a typical eastie, refuses to acknowledge the truth.
 
73320,

As I have said many times before......there is an imbalance for some of the senior pilots and a different imbalance for the junior pilots under the NIC. I fully understand your side of the facts as far as the junior side of the list.

I have said many times that the NIC needs to be renegotiated just because of the discrepancies in these areas. But the West pilots will not give in to trying to reach middle ground, so we are where we are. Not totally the West's fault considering the cold shoulder from USAPA.

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming the West group, but we are all in a unique situation here.

breeze

What you seem to be missing, breeze, is that the west pilots did attempt to reach middle ground back when it was appropriate to do so. Your side was all in for DOH and it didn't go your way. The west did everything by the book and spent a lot of effort and money doing so.

Now we are all in defending what is fair and you blame the west for the situation we are in. Childish at best. Devious more likely.
 
it's a done deal

Am I'm going on record here and say that Silver is going to come back and state that the Nic is it and must be used.

She's not even going to give the company an option to stray an inch away from the award.

Even that clueless Wake wouldn t do that. But let her. Hello 9th!
 
What you seem to be missing, breeze, is that the west pilots did attempt to reach middle ground back when it was appropriate to do so. Your side was all in for DOH and it didn't go your way. The west did everything by the book and spent a lot of effort and money doing so.

Now we are all in defending what is fair and you blame the west for the situation we are in. Childish at best. Devious more likely.
Please link us to the minutes to prove your point.
 
Even that clueless Wake wouldn t do that. But let her. Hello 9th!
Wake did tell us it was the Nicolau. Remember the injunction? Yes the ninth overturned on ripeness. Which means that as soon as a contract not using the Nicolau it becomes ripe. Game over for usapa.

What Silver is going to tell all the parties will not be that you have to use the Nicolau or issue and injunction. She is simply going to tell the company that if you use anything other than the Nicolau list you will get sued and lose. Make up your own mind. Now normal people will avoid being sued. With that decision the company will refuse to negotiate seniority and use the Nicolau.

East pilots must like to be sued and lose.

The ninth will have nothing to say about this. Silver will give us her legal opinion no injunction. The ninth may disagree with it but there is nothing to reverse. The company will have their answer. Just like they had with Wake. Even though it was overturned the company still points to it as a loss for usapa. Which also includes the company.

You can keep hoping for the ninth to save your butts again. Don't count on it this time.
 
How the FAA reauthorization bill may encourage American's unions to want to merge with US Airways

Rumors have been circulating for weeks that US Airways has upped its courtship of American Airlines' unions and creditors, trying to convince them that their idea of merging the two carriers is better than AMR chief executive Tom Horton's restructuring plan.

On Friday, Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison stepped into the fray with a statement saying merger talks could be disruptive to American's bankruptcy restructuring process. The Allied Pilots Association, the Association of Professional Flight Attendants and the Transport Workers Union fired back, telling politicians to stay out of it.

"We respectfully request that all stakeholders of American Airlines—including lawmakers and everyone else with a vested interest in the outcome of the restructuring—withhold judgment about any industry consolidation that could involve our airline until all of the facts become known," the three union presidents said in a joint statement on Friday evening.

But here's what some of the rank-and-file have been telling me and it all has to do with the Federal Aviation Administration reauthorization bill that passed Congress and was signed by President Obama in February.

One of the big concerns in any airline merger is seniority integration. For example, TWA pilots were extremely upset with how they were integrated or stapled on to the bottom of American's pilots seniority list when TWA was bought by American over a decade ago. And US Airways pilots are still fighting former America West pilots years after the merger of those two carriers.

But language in the FAA reauthorization bill may have alleviated concerns that American's unions might have with merging with US Airways.

Labor unions blasted the bill when it was signed because according to the bill, when two airlines merge, if the larger of the two carriers is non-unionized, then the smaller carrier's workers lose their union representation. The bill also raised the threshold that unions need to petition the National Mediation Board for an election, making it harder for a union to gain representation at a non-unionized airline.

So a merger of the larger Delta Air Lines and smaller American would hurt American's unions. But some American union workers interpret the bill to also mean that a merger of the larger American and a smaller US Airways would be beneficial. Since American is bigger, they infer under their interpretation of the law, American's unions would be retain control of the membership, essentially throwing out US Airways' unions in a merger. As one worker put it to me, this solves the problem faced by US Airways chief executive Doug Parker if two pilot unions had to duke it out for control.

Whether or not this reading of the new FAA reauthorization bill is accurate remains to be seen and I'm in the process of contacting labor experts to see what they think.

And this is all leading up to Monday's court hearing where American will start its Section 1113 arguments in front of U.S. bankruptcy judge Sean Lane.

Read more here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2012/04/how-the-faa-reauthorization-bill-may-encourage-americans-unions-to-want-to-merge-with-us-airways.html#storylink=cpy
 
That's exactly what the dec action will result in. Afterwards, it's a straight forward game theory analysis: what benefit is there to the big parties with a lot of influence (the company and APA) to risk anything, just so the East can dilute the Nicolau? What's in it for them? I think Seham offered labor peace and a cost neutral contract. How'd that go? How about that injunction from Judge Conrad? Add it all up and it's pretty clear that USAPA and DOH are living on borrowed time.
 
Even that clueless Wake wouldn t do that. But let her. Hello 9th!

Speaking of clueless, obviously you have no clue what is being asked in the company's DJ.

However, I will disagree with Move and say that Silver will reiterate the 9ths ruling in Addington.

Is a non-Nic a DFR..?? Don't know til we see the non-Nic and then wait and see if anybody sues.

I do feel she will also point out the obvious. That usapa's failure to use the Nic has already been adjudicated and found usapa fails it DFR. Further, that the only reason the company was dismissed from the original Addington trial was because of their unwillingness to accept usapa's proposal. So, if the company now accepts usapa's illegal proposal, with full knowledge of its detriment to the West pilots, the company will be on the hook for damages all the way back to when they first rejected the usapa proposal in 2008.

Good luck getting that overturned by the 9th circus who has already told usapa the exact same thing in their "unquestionably ripe" ruling that was/is a complete "justice delayed is justice denied" piece of judicial horse sh1t.
 
I think the knitting lady used a ouija board or a dart board or pin the tail on the donkey. However you look at it, it wasn't thought out at all - unless you consider it was screwed up intentionally to piss us off.

I am serious.

I can't figure out how it worked out. How many months did the company go below West fleet mins?

There are some people on the list who look like they got one months difference between reserve guarantee and line average, while others got that same number for months, even if they were senior enough to hold lines but choose to bid reserve.

On top of that I can't figure out if it is even the difference between reserve guarantee and line average, I am just assuming that part.

I am not on the list because I did not get bumped to reserve, which is my understanding from the arbitration as to who would get the payout, so maybe that is why I can't figure it out.


I guess the biggest point I would like to make is not going to be a popular one. If the distribution was determined as part of the follow up to the arbitration and ordered this way by the arbitrator, then I think the best course is to go ahead an recieve the payout as ordered. However, if this is just the grievence committee dividing up the money based on who was on reserve for those months, then maybe it needs to be massaged a little.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top