US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

But we did MERGE. None of that happened.

Agreed, well said.

 

[CallawayGolf]

If you can't see by now that the above is not going to happen, I don't know what to tell ya.

I have a pretty good idea who we are dealing with so I don't hold out for any mass moral convictions occurring amongst the east rank and file. I was merely pointing out that your assertion that there is only one way for a resolution to occur is inaccurate. However improbable it is that the east may soon find a moral foothold in this situation, accepting the NIC is still the single best option for attaining a JCBA which would greatly enhance the QOL of every pilot, east and west. The NIC is exceedingly fair to all pilots and it certainly does not bring the harm that so many claim it does. Fighting the paper tiger of the NIC misconceptions is hurting the east more than anyone else, but again intentional blindness prevents the truth from being accepted and perceives immoral actions to be justified because of feelings rather than fact.

 

[Pi brat]

I have a pretty good idea who we are dealing with so I don't hold out for any mass moral convictions occurring amongst the east rank and file. I was merely pointing out that your assertion that there is only one way for a resolution to occur is inaccurate. However improbable it is that the east may soon find a moral foothold in this situation, accepting the NIC is still the single best option for attaining a JCBA which would greatly enhance the QOL of every pilot, east and west. The NIC is exceedingly fair to all pilots and it certainly does not bring the harm that so many claim it does. Fighting the paper tiger of the NIC misconceptions is hurting the east more than anyone else, but again intentional blindness prevents the truth from being accepted and perceives immoral actions to be justified because of feelings rather than fact.

This is not a moral issue, it's about both sides fighting for what they think is right. There are plenty of east guys that think the the Nic is so obviously flawed that any moral person would see the wrong and do everything in their power to right it and if they don't they are immoral. I disagree with them too. Why don't we drop the "moral, holier than thou" crap?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

This is not a moral issue, it's about both sides fighting for what they think is right. There are plenty of east guys that think the the Nic is so obviously flawed that any moral person would see the wrong and do everything in their power to right it and if they don't they are immoral. I disagree with them too. Why don't we drop the "moral, holier than thou" crap?

You ought to like it, the brochures, posters like him and Metroyet. They are doing more to get your side unified and dug in then any union communication. It's pretty obvious in the holier than thou appeals they post show some desperation or fear of actually letting it legally play out.

 

[luvthe9]

USAPA is the only party who can quickly and easily move the decision away from the courts and bring a resolution to this matter. The answer is simple – accept the NIC and stop asking Management to accept any seniority list other than the NIC. East pilots see the courts as offering the only solution because they are unwilling to accept the fact that violating agreements is illegal, immoral, and futile. The blindness you claim is self-inflicted but is completely reversible once you open your mind to the morally correct pathway and, of your own volition, determine to take it.

Your so WRONG!! AWA pilots are the only party who can quickly and easily move the decision away from the courts and bring a resolution to this matter. The answer is simple – accept DOH with C&Rs and stop asking Management to accept any seniority list other than DOH West pilots see the courts as offering the only solution because they are unwilling to accept the fact that violating agreements is illegal, immoral, and futile. The blindness you claim is self-inflicted but is completely reversible once you open your mind to the morally correct pathway and, of your own volition, determine to take it. 😀

 

[Pi brat]

You ought to like it, the brochures, posters like him and Metroyet. They are doing more to get your side unified and dug in then any union communication. It's pretty obvious in the holier than thou appeals they post show some desperation or fear of actually letting it legally play out.

I guess you are right, at this point I should just let 'em run!

 

[LSS]

And without the merger in 2005 where would ALL of AAA employees be? ON THE STREET. At the time of the merger AWA was making money. AAA was losing money. Let's stick with one time frame at a time OK.

2001 post 9/11 both airline went and got ATSB loans. 2005 at the time of the merger AWA making money, AAA in BK. POST merger 2008, 2009 Parker has said that without the merger AAA would be liquidated. AWA MAY have filed BK. Without the merger AWA may have merged with DAL without the drag of the east there may not have been the fight not to merge.

But we did MERGE. None of that happened.

Sorry to rain on your parade.... but US Airways was declared "dead" more times than you can count... however, despite that conjecture by the airline industry talking heads (which is what it was then... and I classify your comments now as well) there was something about the company in which financiers saw value.

 

[CallawayGolf]

This is not a moral issue, it's about both sides fighting for what they think is right. There are plenty of east guys that think the the Nic is so obviously flawed that any moral person would see the wrong and do everything in their power to right it and if they don't they are immoral. I disagree with them too. Why don't we drop the "moral, holier than thou" crap?

I need to start keeping track of how many times I have asked this question and have never received a response ... please cite any recognized moral code (religious, civil, philosophical, whatever), that governs any societal interactions which explicitly states that violating an agreement/covenant is considered honorable/moral or that professes that honoring one’s agreements is considered immoral/dishonorable. In this country and with our reliance on Judeo-Christian ethics it is unquestionably true that breaking agreements, contracts, or covenants is immoral. You can try to hide from that fact, but thus far you haven’t cited any objective standard of morality that holds that what the east pilots are doing is in any way considered to be moral or acceptable conduct in any society.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Your so WRONG!! AWA pilots are the only party who can quickly and easily move the decision away from the courts and bring a resolution to this matter. The answer is simple – accept DOH with C&Rs and stop asking Management to accept any seniority list other than DOH West pilots see the courts as offering the only solution because they are unwilling to accept the fact that violating agreements is illegal, immoral, and futile. The blindness you claim is self-inflicted but is completely reversible once you open your mind to the morally correct pathway and, of your own volition, determine to take it. 😀

And who represents the west as a separate group now? What if just one west pilot doesn't go along with your plan? That's right a DFR with a great chance given USAPA's penchant for violating agreements.

And then there is the thorny problem that Management hasn't shown any willingness to move away from the accepted NIC. The west and Management have repeatedly said that the NIC is it, so that only leaves USAPA to join in an resolve the issue once and for all and accept the NIC too. I guess I wasn't so WRONG after all!

 

[mikey60]

If your brother is telling you that former AirCal pilots were furloughed from AA after 911 he is definitely pulling your chain. And you fell for it. Of course there's another alternative but I won't tempt the Mods.

Jim

No after Air Cal joined ops with Reno Air but before they were stapled to the bottom of the AA list he quit. Did not want to start at the bottom and would never checkout. Might even have been big fish little pond thing, you know that goes..don't you.

 

[autofixer]

I need to start keeping track of how many times I have asked this question and have never received a response ... please cite any recognized moral code (religious, civil, philosophical, whatever), that governs any societal interactions which explicitly states that violating an agreement/covenant is considered honorable/moral or that professes that honoring one’s agreements is considered immoral/dishonorable. In this country and with our reliance on Judeo-Christian ethics it is unquestionably true that breaking agreements, contracts, or covenants is immoral. You can try to hide from that fact, but thus far you haven’t cited any objective standard of morality that holds that what the east pilots are doing is in any way considered to be moral or acceptable conduct in any society.

I have one; Slavery was recognized as moral and legal in many states. A group of people thought this was wrong and fought to right the wrong. The NIC award is as flawed, as was the legal recognition of slavery and must be overturned as well...this is what the legal system is for. It may come as a surprise to some of you out West, but that is really how strongly we feel in the East.

There are more examples if one cares to look: Child labor laws, Woman's suffrage, The government's takeover of GM and the government's disregarding of contract law with respect to the bond holders...but when you have an agenda, you tend to wear blinders.

 

[luvthe9]

I need to start keeping track of how many times I have asked this question and have never received a response ... please cite any recognized moral code (religious, civil, philosophical, whatever), that governs any societal interactions which explicitly states that violating an agreement/covenant is considered honorable/moral or that professes that honoring one’s agreements is considered immoral/dishonorable. In this country and with our reliance on Judeo-Christian ethics it is unquestionably true that breaking agreements, contracts, or covenants is immoral. You can try to hide from that fact, but thus far you haven’t cited any objective standard of morality that holds that what the east pilots are doing is in any way considered to be moral or acceptable conduct in any society.

Here is some TRUE religion for you golfer. The fact that some arbitrator put a guy never furloughed, Monda, with 17 yrs. behind new hires is NEVER going to fly. If you call that deal honorable, it is honorable only for your guys. It is not going to fly on our side. This is why you can't get the senior guys to buy off on the pretty Leonidas mailer. The longer you wait without compromise with your Nic, the more you hang out there like a nice fat target. The clarification is going to take the wind completely out of your sails very shortly.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I have one; Slavery was recognized as moral and legal in many states. A group of people thought this was wrong and fought to right the wrong. The NIC award is as flawed, as was the legal recognition of slavery and must be overturned as well...this is what the legal system is for. It may come as a surprise to some of you out West, but that is really how strongly we feel in the East.

There are more examples if one cares to look: Child labor laws, Woman's suffrage, The government's takeover of GM and the government's disregarding of contract law with respect to the bond holders...but when you have an agenda, you tend to wear blinders.

Well said! And slavery is also tacitly tolerated, if not condoned, in the bible.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I have one; Slavery was recognized as moral and legal in many states. A group of people thought this was wrong and fought to right the wrong. The NIC award is as flawed, as was the legal recognition of slavery and must be overturned as well...this is what the legal system is for. It may come as a surprise to some of you out West, but that is really how strongly we feel in the East.

There are more examples if one cares to look: Child labor laws, Woman's suffrage, The government's takeover of GM and the government's disregarding of contract law with respect to the bond holders...but when you have an agenda, you tend to wear blinders.

You haven’t cited a moral code. You have given examples of statutory laws which may or may not have had a basis in a moral code. Furthermore, none of these laws have anything to do with contracts or covenants. Some nations still view slavery, child labor, and suffrage very differently than our own society, but not even those nations honor contract breaking as an expression of morality.

Nice try, but my point remains unchallenged that keeping agreements, especially those made via covenants or contract, are universally expected and demanded by all civilized societies and it has been the case since the recorded history of mankind. You cannot same the same thing usingyour examples of people’s changing perceptions of what is or is not a valid interpretation of the pure moral code.

 

[BoeingBoy]

No after Air Cal joined ops with Reno Air but before they were stapled to the bottom of the AA list he quit.

A nice tale but doesn't fit wit reality. AirCal was acquired by AA in 1987 and the pilots were integrated via DOH. AA didn't acquiire Reno till 1999. Are you sure your brother didn't make the whole thing up?

Jim