US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

It very well may be. We all have to pick our battles. As with every other contractual thing, it will probably have to be paid for with something else of value. There is only so much pie to go around. I was only contending the notion that there are no other options, since that's the way the east has always done it. It's this blind resistance to change at all cost, or seeing things only as the "east way" and the wrong way, that rubs people the wrong way.

By all means, if PBS is the hill you choose to stand or die on, that is your choice.

Why do you have to constantly affix a battle to every issue with the east? We looked at PBS. It sucks, our system is better. Just because you guys have a crappy system is not our problem. It is that simple. There is no hill and there is no dying.

 

[cactusboy53]

Internal Union proposal to the company... with the union free to re-open sections of the CBA (as the company likes to do) at any time until a CBA is ratified... even a seniority list... !

Keep saying it over and over (don't forget to tap your ruby shoes together while repeating the phrase).....

 

[luvthe9]

Warned of what exactly? You guys have been told time and again you're on a fools errand. The Jury conviction in less than 2 hrs is kind of an indicator don't you think?

Here we go again. The jury in the trial that is now wiped clean. Is that the one ? If it has any import, let us know how you are going to use it. 😀

 

[CallawayGolf]

Dude... I don't need any more information than what I've experienced, and read... The MEC "APPOINTED" the Merger Committee... Did I have any say in that?... Oh... and I know what your retort will be... well, you voted in the MEC... the hell I did... it was the "good ole boy" ALPA machine that kept their "favored sons" in power!... With Rice controlling what constituted a valid "recall" ballot... in both CLT and PHL... I saw how corrupt ALPA was... I witnessed it first hand... so get off your fricking high horse and understand that no matter the band width you choose to waste... WE WILL NEVER EVER AGREE... the courts will decide this matter! And I don't give a darn what nefarious labels you try to place on the East pilots... (and I think you've already called us every name in the book)... guess what... WE DON'T GIVE A DAMN!

Actually, it doesn’t matter who you voted for or if you voted at all. It doesn’t matter if you were objector or a non-member of ALPA – the NRLB gave ALPA the federally-authorized right to represent every pilot of US & HP at the time of the merger based on the representational election process that brought them in in the first place. If you didn’t want ALPA representation you only choice was to find another company to work for where APLA was not the CBA. Short of that, and like it or not, ALPA had the authority to bind you to the agreements they made on your behalf so long as you are in the employ of US Airways. There are hundreds of people in DC who I didn’t vote for and I passionately that their actions are an abomination to most things I hold dear, but that doesn’t give me the justification (legal or ethical) to subvert they authority they have to pillage my paycheck for their nefarious schemes. I could renounce my citizenship and move to another country, but as long as I chose to live in the US, I am bound to obey their authority or suffer the consequences for my rebellious conduct.

I too believe that we will never agree on this and that the courts will ultimately declare who is right. I got a good chuckle out of youy post so thanks for helping me to enjoy this day even more than I already was.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I've got to go, but I might try to explain it to you latter if I feel like I have some more time to waste.

Sounds good. I don't need commentary, justification of any mention of the seniority lists at US; please just cite the authoritative moral code to which you refer and I can draw my conclusions from there.

Thanks and have a great day.

 

[nycbusdriver]

You haven’t cited a moral code. You have given examples of statutory laws which may or may not have had a basis in a moral code. Furthermore, none of these laws have anything to do with contracts or covenants. Some nations still view slavery, child labor, and suffrage very differently than our own society, but not even those nations honor contract breaking as an expression of morality.

Nice try, but my point remains unchallenged that keeping agreements, especially those made via covenants or contract, are universally expected and demanded by all civilized societies and it has been the case since the recorded history of mankind. You cannot same the same thing usingyour examples of people’s changing perceptions of what is or is not a valid interpretation of the pure moral code.

You keep talking of "moral code" here. There is no such thing. At least nothing of a universal nature. As you so astutely point out, morality changes with time, culture, situations. What one finds supremely moral, another may find totally abhorrent. Who's right? Depends on who you ask. And this is where we are. Under Sunni Islamic Law, a man can divorce his wife by saying to her three times: "I divorce you." Do westerners find that moral? Do Sunnis? The Mormons during their early history found polygamy moral (some still do, and deliberately break civil law in order to live by their higher moral code.)

YOU can't define morality for anyone other than YOU. Period.

Maybe we east pilots are anathema to you by our stance, or by our very existence. Get over it. We're not going anywhere, and we accept that what we are doing in fighting for fairness in the face of the Nicolau abomination is moral. Don;t like it? Tough. We don't accept your "moral code," either.

So, friend, save your preaching for an audience that cares what you think about morality.

 

[Metroyet]

Here we go again. The jury in the trial that is now wiped clean. Is that the one ? If it has any import, let us know how you are going to use it. 😀

The Declaratory Judgment case is replete with references to the case. It's the prime motivator for the company to take said action. It's the stick they know is waiting for them if they're dumb enough to go along with USAPAs unrelenting assault on the West pilots.

Addington is everything. $e$ham and the Cleary regime are nothing.

 

[LSS]

Actually, it doesn’t matter who you voted for or if you voted at all. It doesn’t matter if you were objector or a non-member of ALPA – the NRLB gave ALPA the federally-authorized right to represent every pilot of US & HP at the time of the merger based on the representational election process that brought them in in the first place. If you didn’t want ALPA representation you only choice was to find another company to work for where APLA was not the CBA. Short of that, and like it or not, ALPA had the authority to bind you to the agreements they made on your behalf so long as you are in the employ of US Airways. There are hundreds of people in DC who I didn’t vote for and I passionately that their actions are an abomination to most things I hold dear, but that doesn’t give me the justification (legal or ethical) to subvert they authority they have to pillage my paycheck for their nefarious schemes. I could renounce my citizenship and move to another country, but as long as I chose to live in the US, I am bound to obey their authority or suffer the consequences for my rebellious conduct.

I too believe that we will never agree on this and that the courts will ultimately declare who is right. I got a good chuckle out of youy post so thanks for helping me to enjoy this day even more than I already was.

Glad I could obligue!

 

[LSS]

The Declaratory Judgment case is replete with references to the case. It's the prime motivator for the company to take said action. It's the stick they know is waiting for them if they're dumb enough to go along with USAPAs unrelenting assault on the West pilots.

Addington is everything. $e$ham and the Cleary regime are nothing.

Only in your world!

 

[Metroyet]

Only in your world!

prove otherwise.

 

[LSS]

Actually, it doesn’t matter who you voted for or if you voted at all. It doesn’t matter if you were objector or a non-member of ALPA – the NRLB gave ALPA the federally-authorized right to represent every pilot of US & HP at the time of the merger based on the representational election process that brought them in in the first place. If you didn’t want ALPA representation you only choice was to find another company to work for where APLA was not the CBA. Short of that, and like it or not, ALPA had the authority to bind you to the agreements they made on your behalf so long as you are in the employ of US Airways. There are hundreds of people in DC who I didn’t vote for and I passionately that their actions are an abomination to most things I hold dear, but that doesn’t give me the justification (legal or ethical) to subvert they authority they have to pillage my paycheck for their nefarious schemes. I could renounce my citizenship and move to another country, but as long as I chose to live in the US, I am bound to obey their authority or suffer the consequences for my rebellious conduct.

I too believe that we will never agree on this and that the courts will ultimately declare who is right. I got a good chuckle out of youy post so thanks for helping me to enjoy this day even more than I already was.

ALPA was the one morally corrupt... and we had nothing to say about it!

 

[LSS]

prove otherwise.

What... to satisfy you? Never going to happen... Just as with the NIC... nothing will satisfy you unless you get your beloved "PRIZE" to the detriment of the East pilots!

 

[cynic]

Here we go again. The jury in the trial that is now wiped clean. Is that the one ? If it has any import, let us know how you are going to use it. 😀

While the case itself was dismissed, it should still give pause to the actions that caused the suit to be filed in the first place. The ruling was simply that the case was filed too soon, there was no ruling from the 9th on the merits of the case itself. If anyone is "using" the case, it should be the East, not the West, as it should be a warning regarding their actions/intentions and how those actions/intentions are/were viewed by a judge and jury.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You keep talking of "moral code" here. There is no such thing. At least nothing of a universal nature. As you so astutely point out, morality changes with time, culture, situations. What one finds supremely moral, another may find totally abhorrent. Who's right? Depends on who you ask. And this is where we are. Under Sunni Islamic Law, a man can divorce his wife by saying to her three times: "I divorce you." Do westerners find that moral? Do Sunnis? The Mormons during their early history found polygamy moral (some still do, and deliberately break civil law in order to live by their higher moral code.)

YOU can't define morality for anyone other than YOU. Period.

Maybe we east pilots are anathema to you by our stance, or by our very existence. Get over it. We're not going anywhere, and we accept that what we are doing in fighting for fairness in the face of the Nicolau abomination is moral. Don;t like it? Tough. We don't accept your "moral code," either.

So, friend, save your preaching for an audience that cares what you think about morality.

I completely disagree. I never tried to force one particular moral code on the debate. I simply asked for ANY moral code (religious, philosophical, constitutional/governmental) where the concept of contract breaking is specifically described as being moral/legal/ethical? Surely if the east considers violating the NIC/TA to be ethical, there must be some independent, recognized source that not only affirms your position, but also shows how that culture as enacted contract breaking into their normal societal conduct. There are thousands of current and ancient cultures to choose from, please just cite one and I will gladly drop the whole discussion. Note that I am not interested in a current opinion from some individual or fringe group; I’m asking for someone to provide a moral code or societal system that affirms this belief.

The fact that no one can provide an example from any recognized source stands as a de facto condemnation for the east pilots, which is why ethics and morality is shunned by those who hold that the NIC should be violated to the advantage of the east pilots.

You used the example of marriage so let’s go with that. I’ll grant you that many different cultures and belief systems treat marriage and divorce differently. However, are there any cultures or religions that consider marriage itself to be immoral? Are there any that hail divorce as the culturally accepted form of morality? You see many people view the interpretation of the marriage covenant differently, but all cultures place marriage into the category of morality thus affirming that marriage is a moral institution. We can quite reasonably conclude that cultures honor the morality of marriage even if there is a different set of laws and beliefs as to how marriage vows ought to be viewed.

Likewise, all cultures agree that people are bound to keep the covenants and agreements they make. Laws and interpretations may vary from social groups, but no social group sets contract breaking to be the standard of ethics and morality, thus affirming my position that societies everywhere consider breaking a contract to be immoral.

 

[luvthe9]

Sounds good. I don't need commentary, justification of any mention of the seniority lists at US; please just cite the authoritative moral code to which you refer and I can draw my conclusions from there.

Thanks and have a great day.

This has nothing to do with a moral code. It has everything to do with Internal Union Affairs. The USAirways pilots by majority vote selected a new union that has CB&L 's that have nothing to do with the Nicolau Award. It is that simple. 😀