US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Hate2fly]

Well, so what is not "unrealistically high"?.....................

I don't agree "that there will never be a JCBA" with a USAPA LOA 93 win. There may never be a JCBA here anyway, but not because of LOA 93. But then again, maybe the West Pilots should go to Parker and offer to sign a five year LOA 93 contract going forward with NIC as section 22, he may bite at that one.

If Parker wants to part this place out, it will be much easier to do it with a West and an East Division. That may very well happen, so don't be so quick to blame it all on USAPA, I'd be real concerned if the only way you make money is by charging for checked bags........and that is where we are at right now..........

No Land,

Even with a Kasher win on the east. Team Tempe will not want to put this thing together........it will cost them 400 plus million for a joint contract.

Team Tempe will never put out that kind of money...........they have that MESA/Trans States/AWA mentality.

It is cheaper to keep it separate. The west pilot group should have listened to J. Freund. All the risk is on the west side!

You mention parting this thing out......that might be the only option down the road for Team Tempe.

Hate

 

[CallawayGolf]

Well, so what is not "unrealistically high"?.....................

Why don't you tell me what USAPA's offer was so we can both evaluate the merits of it objectively.

Absent that, I can only presume that the offer was so height that it could never be paid for out of projected operating profits and thus extended beyond the boundaries of reality - well beyond if I had to take a guess. I suspect it would be like me walking into a precious metals dealer today and offering to buy an ounce of gold for $150. At that point negotiations are over because the offer is totally unrealistic.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Why don't you tell me what USAPA's offer was so we can both evaluate the merits of it objectively.

Absent that, I can only presume that the offer was so height that it could never be paid for out of projected operating profits and thus extended beyond the boundaries of reality - well beyond if I had to take a guess. I suspect it would be like me walking into a precious metals dealer today and offering to buy an ounce of gold for $150. At that point negotiations are over because the offer is totally unrealistic.

If you were a MIGS you could go on the website and see the latest offers from both sides. If you are not a MIGS, then it's none of your business.

 

[Metroyet]

The west pilot group should have listened to J. Freund. All the risk is on the west side!

You guys love to say this. What does it mean? What is the "risk"? What's the downside to NOT capitulating to the illegal demands of a bunch of impotent despots?

Nothing Freund said/didn't say/would have said, would have changed a single thing in this situation. The East was hell bent to self inflict more wounds. There is no rationalizing with the mental.

 

[CallawayGolf]

No Land,

Even with a Kasher win on the east. Team Tempe will not want to put this thing together........it will cost them 400 plus million for a joint contract.

Team Tempe will never put out that kind of money...........they have that MESA/Trans States/AWA mentality.

It is cheaper to keep it separate. The west pilot group should have listened to J. Freund. All the risk is on the west side!

You mention parting this thing out......that might be the only option down the road for Team Tempe.

Hate

Ah so USAPA's offer is roughly 400% higher than the Kirby? So first Management said - cost neutral and then they bumped up the offer to $120M above that as a way to get the JCBA done. Then USAPA rolls in with a $400M annual increase in salaries? No wonder negotiations are cold as ice and Management has no fear that the NMB would make a ruling that would put them into an almost immediate bankruptcy situation.

Like I said, USAPA doesn't want a contract - they only want to delay as long as possible which is exactly what that requested salary increase proves. The only limits USAPA has for shooting itself in the foot are the number of bullets and the number of feet they can find.

 

[pitchlow]

You really do like to play fast and loose with facts. Read ALPA merger policy again and quote the EXACT verbiage of the part pertaining to windfall. It says no windfall at the expense of the other side. When you leave that part out it changes the entire meaning. The Nic award, and the resulting slotting of pilots based on category and class is not a windfall. And even if you personally consider it one (however irrelevant your opinion is to the process), it didn;t come at anyone's expense, since it keeps everyone about where they were the day before the merger.

So you are wrong. ALPA very much did honor and follow it's policies to the letter. Sorry, but you can't blame anyone else for what you have done except yourselves. I will say that you oldie, do have a persistent denial of reality and fact, and seem to favor an alternate reality you've fabricated in your mind. Keep clicking your heals. You'll never get your DOH pipe dream. And you'll never convince anyone of your propaganda, outside of your band of brothers.

ALPA merger policy was written for the express purpose of producing a list which removes the association from liability. This is not a criticism. ALPA is both an Association and a business. You say Nicolau is not a windfall some say other wise, whatever..... That's very old news. The policy has nothing to do with honor. If it does honor me for changing my oil. It's a means to an end. The Nicolau award achieved ALPA's primary goal of producing a final and binding list which is DFR proof "IF" all parties agree. An arbitration went haywire and a financially successful CBA was replaced. Why is that so hard to understand. The next time you wish to use the term honor would you kindly remember the fallen U.S Vet. I get uncomfortable hearing that term in the context of an internal union process.

 

[No Land Green]

Why don't you tell me what USAPA's offer was so we can both evaluate the merits of it objectively.

Absent that, I can only presume that the offer was so height that it could never be paid for out of projected operating profits and thus extended beyond the boundaries of reality - well beyond if I had to take a guess. I suspect it would be like me walking into a precious metals dealer today and offering to buy an ounce of gold for $150. At that point negotiations are over because the offer is totally unrealistic.

Hate has it right, it's going to cost way more than $120 million. But then again, as I said earlier, just gather your group up and go make Parker a 5 year LOA 93 and NIC TA and you may just get a yes. Besides it will insulate you from the next down cycle with the cheap labor......hmmm, that may actually help us on the
East side if this drags with all the litigation.......

 

[No Land Green]

You guys love to say this. What does it mean? What is the "risk"? What's the downside to NOT capitulating to the illegal demands of a bunch of impotent despots?

Nothing Freund said/didn't say/would have said, would have changed a single thing in this situation. The East was hell bent to self inflict more wounds. There is no rationalizing with the mental.

Funny, I talked to one of the East Wye River participants, that wasn't his spin.......

 

[No Land Green]

Ah so USAPA's offer is roughly 400% higher than the Kirby? So first Management said - cost neutral and then they bumped up the offer to $120M above that as a way to get the JCBA done. Then USAPA rolls in with a $400M annual increase in salaries? No wonder negotiations are cold as ice and Management has no fear that the NMB would make a ruling that would put them into an almost immediate bankruptcy situation.

Like I said, USAPA doesn't want a contract - they only want to delay as long as possible which is exactly what that requested salary increase proves. The only limits USAPA has for shooting itself in the foot are the number of bullets and the number of feet they can find.

USAPA does want a contract, just not a low ball contract.........Remember our Management is top tiered compensation wise amongst their peer group. That's exactly where we should be as pilots, not just agree to a sub par CBA just to get section 22, whichever way it goes, cast in stone.........

 

[LSS]

Why don't you tell me what USAPA's offer was so we can both evaluate the merits of it objectively.

Absent that, I can only presume that the offer was so height that it could never be paid for out of projected operating profits and thus extended beyond the boundaries of reality - well beyond if I had to take a guess. I suspect it would be like me walking into a precious metals dealer today and offering to buy an ounce of gold for $150. At that point negotiations are over because the offer is totally unrealistic.

Youse guys continually accuse USAPA of not trying to negotiate a contract... then added to this... they are not even seeking an industry standard contract... then the accusation is not an industry leading contract... then... that they've asked way more than anything Doogie/Kirby would agree to... so which is it... sounds to me like in your mind... and perhaps others on the west... USAPA is damned if they do and damned if they don't... Like an earlier poster said... the information is readily available if you are a MIGS... if you're not... just continue to stand on the sidelines and #### like crazy with an unwillingness to participate in the process.

 

[Metroyet]

Funny, I talked to one of the East Wye River participants, that wasn't his spin.......

Firstly an "East" counter part at Wye is hardly an unbiased source of info. Secondly, you didn't answer the question. What is this mysterious "risk" that the West has taken on? What's the danger? What are the consequences of not cowering to a bunch of Scumbags that make Lorenzo Era picket line crossers look like Hero's?

Do you have an answer or does that stupid, meaningless statement some how comfort you?

 

[Pi brat]

Looks like Parker is finally going to show up at a PHX crew news. Give him heck boys!

 

[Pi brat]

Firstly an "East" counter part at Wye is hardly an unbiased source of info. Secondly, you didn't answer the question. What is this mysterious "risk" that the West has taken on? What's the danger? What are the consequences of not cowering to a bunch of Scumbags that make Lorenzo Era picket line crossers look like Hero's?

Do you have an answer or does that stupid, meaningless statement some how comfort you?

I have to give this one a vote for post of the year. Lots of venom there for someone who supposedly doesn't have a dog in the fight. I'd hate to see ya when they do you wrong at the bank.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Firstly an "East" counter part at Wye is hardly an unbiased source of info. Secondly, you didn't answer the question. What is this mysterious "risk" that the West has taken on? What's the danger? What are the consequences of not cowering to a bunch of Scumbags that make Lorenzo Era picket line crossers look like Hero's?

Do you have an answer or does that stupid, meaningless statement some how comfort you?

I actually thought it was obvious, what he meant by "risk". He meant that the West could lose 100% of their windfall, instead of negotiate at Wye River and keep, maybe 50% or slightly more. I guess he was right. You guys are losing it all. The Nic is DEAD!

The fact that anyone would even contemplate crossing a picket line just blows me away. Talk about having no honor. A lot of the East guys walked in those lines, then lost jobs because of Lorenzo. Then, what does ALPA do? Lets all the line-crossers and scabs at CO back in, just to make some more cash. It's ALPA that you clowns should be angry at, for not having any sort of real, workable merger policy.

 

[RSVP767]

Funny. I seem to remember a Conviction and subsequent Injunction attached to your fake Union in Arizona.

That was just a figment of your imagination. It's gone now!