US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

The only true statement in your post is that AWA did not have 330's on order. The new and improved US Airways (without AWA would not exist) did but the east makes sure they only benefit from the new and improved. The rest of your post is just so full of BS that it is just not worth addressing. Enjoy living in your fantasy world. It's coming to an end sooner than you think.

AWA, brimming with cash, bought USAirways. This is funny, but an outright falsehood. The money came from Wisconsin and Republic. AWA didn't have two dimes to rub together after 9-11. They were bleeding cash.

 

[Freighterguynow]

So again. I'll ask the simple question to any Eastie willing to commit a cogent answer...WHY should USAPA continue to flout convention and refuse to poll it's pilots...(let's drop the conspiracy theorist, black helicopter ALPA B.S. please) Simple question. WHY?

Why are you waiting for an East pilot? Why don't you put forth a resolution at the next PHX meeting and take it to the BPR for action?

As to your question, the East pilots are happy with the direction of the union otherwise we'd be passing motions at the local level to address it. That doesn't fit your version of reality so it becomes a 'scared' or 'hard liners' boogieman.



Here's one back at ya: what happened to the East/West pilot coalition, the CLT F/O recall, or the Cleary recall? Haven't heard a peep.

 

[cleardirect]

AWA, brimming with cash, bought USAirways. This is funny, but an outright falsehood. The money came from Wisconsin and Republic. AWA didn't have two dimes to rub together after 9-11. They were bleeding cash.

Check your facts. At the time of the merger AWA was posting profits. Not bleeding cash.

BTW Wisconsin and Republic did not have a couple billion laying around. MOST of the cash came from somewhere else.

 

[luvn737s]

Nobody said the senior west pilots should not have a shot at the 330 as they come in. As far as PHX to Europe? It is really hard to see how that will ever work at this time. I hate to say it but if they try it, it will probably not have the demand. Especially now.

Yeah, tell British to stop flying that empty 747 back and forth.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

AWA, brimming with cash, bought USAirways. This is funny, but an outright falsehood. The money came from Wisconsin and Republic. AWA didn't have two dimes to rub together after 9-11. They were bleeding cash.

Also the first one in line for a government hand out in the form of an ATSB loan post 9-11. Yeah they were brimming with cash alright, just not THEIR cash.

 

[Pi brat]

You missed the keyword "nearly". USAPA supporters have an apparently natural aversion to facts and plain language.
Anyway.,.."thrice" (meaning 3)

Prior to Wolf coming on board in 1998, how comfortable were you your airline was going to survive? Historical stock prices would suggest you shouldn't have been surprised to see a chain and padlock on the doors when you showed for work the next day.

The other two? Those were trips through Bankruptcy Court. Remember that? Remember the time when AMW funneled money over to your payroll department so your last two checks before the merger wouldn't bounce? So to answer you question regarding how a nearly thrice failed company kept paying you I guess I'd just answer you with facts.

First time: LUCK
Second time: LUCK
Third Time: Doug was on a bender and felt like shopping for airlines at the airline humane society. IOW, LUCK.

You seem to be implying that US Airways pilots never experienced any career trouble...that coming from a 24 yr. reserve pilot makes one wonder how firm a grip you have on the real aviation world.

Did I answer your question? Now how about a realistic answer to mine?

Let's make it even easier: Would you support the idea of USAPA contracting a third party to investigate the true feelings and expectations of ALL USAPA Pilots?

That's a yes or no question. NO need for conjecture. If not....Why not?

For someone that doesn't work for US, you sure seem to have a lot of info and passion about it. Even know the slurs for our leaders. Be a big girl or boy, tell us your connection to US, it will make your bias more understandable. I dare ya.

Anyway, NEARLY thrice. You said I seem to be implying that US Airways pilots never experienced any career trouble. How could any sane person come to the conclusion that I think that? We have had plenty of career trouble and have had near death experiences, just like every other major US airline, except SW. UA's "pretty girl" was in Ch 11 twice, remember? Doug was on a bender when he decided to merger with US? And I thought it was charity all this time. Geez..........

The bottom line is that US did not fail. It did not shutdown and was an operating entity when it merged with AWA. They did not pick up the pieces in an auction. My side of the new company brought a lot of value, and the that value has shown to be more than the west side. Nic ignored this and transferred a massive amount of the future to the west and I don't think that is right. That doesn't mean that I think DOH is the only way to merge seniority list and I wish this group had done something to keep us form getting us to where we are. We didn't, we are where we are, and I see no other way out than to let a judge decide out fate.


You implied that I made bad career choices. I asked you how my choices were any different that an AWA pilots choices, since it put us at the same place. I chose to got to work for PI, a great airline, but circumstances changed things, just like thy might at your current employer.

For your question, yes, I would support a decision to have a third party investigate the true feelings of our pilot group. I think we should be heading in the direct the majority wants. The thing, is we don't need to do that to have our feeling known. The structure is there for it to happen and if the majority is not happy it is their fault for not MAKING it happen. Now I know that you and every west pilot that is reading this is thinking the west has no voice. That is not true. They may not have the muscle to get their minority view pushed through, but they have a voice. If the leaders are muting their voices, the leaders can be removed. It only takes 25% of the pilots signatures to put a recall vote out. Why don't they do it? How about the east guys that are so unhappy with things like the LOA 93 lump sum payout, why don't the recall the supreme leader? Well, what a lot of them won't tell you is that they are not members in good standing, so they have given up their legal right to vote. They whine, they complain, but they do nothing to change things. I believe that USAPA is doing exactly what the majority of members in good standing want them to do.

I don't know what is driving you to post the way you do, but I can assure you that it does nothing to help the west.

 

[Pi brat]

Yeah, tell British to stop flying that empty 747 back and forth.

I don't think that is a good comparison. For on thing BA is one of the most respected airlines in the world and they are flying to their hub that is probably the premier hub in the world. But, I hope PHX does get some Europe and Asia flying. It is in my best interest to see it grow and keep guys from wanting to come east.

 

[Pi brat]

Good morning 924PS. How about the Empire thing? 🙄

 

[cleardirect]

Also the first one in line for a government hand out in the form of an ATSB loan post 9-11. Yeah they were brimming with cash alright, just not THEIR cash.

Who was the second airline in line for ATSB loans?

That was 2001 when all airlines were in trouble and bleeding cash. But by 2005 when the merger happened AWA was posting profits. AAA was in BK for the second time. So which airline recovered AFTER 9/11 and which airline continued to sink?

 

[LSS]

Who was the second airline in line for ATSB loans?

That was 2001 when all airlines were in trouble and bleeding cash. But by 2005 when the merger happened AWA was posting profits. AAA was in BK for the second time. So which airline recovered AFTER 9/11 and which airline continued to sink?

Just view the PHX meeting where Parker told a pilot there that without the merger, that guy would be on the street!

 

[cleardirect]

ALPA Agrees with USAPA on Non-Nicolau Seniority Option

Interestingly enough, ALPA has moved for summary judgment, and its current leading argument is that the case is not ripe for adjudication. ALPA, in furtherance of its ripeness argument, cites the Ninth Circuit’s Addington decision to support its assertion that "implementation of a CBA that does not include the Arbitration Board’s merged list would not necessarily be a breach of USAPA’s DFR."

The importance of this admission cannot be overlooked. ALPA, the Union whose internal merger policy created the Nicolau Award, has now recognized in a federal court filing that not only is USAPA free to bargain towards a single CBA without Nicolau, but the non-inclusion of Nicolau in any future CBA does not automatically constitute a breach of USAPA’s duty of fair representation.

You know after a while I almost expect usapa updates to come out in Russian or Korean. This spin is so bad that it is almost unreadable. Let’s take for example this false notion that ALPA is now best friends with usapa. First the fact that usapa quotes anything that ALPA says is funny.

Look at the quote in context and think about what the comm committee is trying to sell. This is from a footnote in a case that is about to be dismissed. The court has had the document for over 4 months and yet to rule. Why the delay?

10 The court in Addington noted that “[a]dditionally, USAPA's final proposal may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award,” and thus the implementation of a CBA that does not include the Arbitration Board’s merged list would not necessarily be a breach of USAPA’s DFR. 2010 WL 2220058 at *5.

Read carefully. It would not NECESSARILY be a breach. Well if you jump out of an airplane without a parachute you would not NECESSARILY die on impact. Some have survived. What the comm committee fails to point out is that ALPA does not say that it would not be a DFR either. ALPA is in the business of defending against DFR’s so they are not going to admit to anything being a DFR. But given that usapa lost a DFR on the merits the odds are that they will lose again. But to say that ALPA agrees with usapa is a far stretch of the truth.

But I guess usapa is admitting that it may not NECESSARILY be a DFR but that is far different that saying that it is absolutely NOT a DFR. Is usapa saying that it may be a DFR?

 

[Pi brat]

But by 2005 when the merger happened AWA was posting profits. AAA was in BK for the second time. So which airline recovered AFTER 9/11 and which airline continued to sink?

Isn't it funny how an idea can take on a life of it's own? Like the idea that AWA was profitable prior to the merger? I guess you can say that AWA was "posting" profits prior to the merger as they did show a profit in the 1st quarter of 2005, but only on special item gains. Absent that they would have lost money, just as they did in the 4th quarter of 2004.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-01-21-amwest-earnings_x.htm

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/america-west-reports-first-quarter-results-54355172.html

I've posted these before, but the myth continues. AWA was going to face a cash crunch. Parker and Kirby have told you this over and over again. They are so wise when they say US would have liquidated, idiots when the say AWA would have been in trouble. Remember during the merger announcement when they said the new airline would be able to make money with oil at the unbelieveable , price of $56 a barrel? Yeah, AWA would have cruised right along, upgrading guys every 7 years, HA!

Why can't we all accept that neither airline was a powerhouse and both needed this merger?

 

[cleardirect]

Just view the PHX meeting where Parker told a pilot there that without the merger, that guy would be on the street!

And without the merger in 2005 where would ALL of AAA employees be? ON THE STREET. At the time of the merger AWA was making money. AAA was losing money. Let's stick with one time frame at a time OK.

2001 post 9/11 both airline went and got ATSB loans. 2005 at the time of the merger AWA making money, AAA in BK. POST merger 2008, 2009 Parker has said that without the merger AAA would be liquidated. AWA MAY have filed BK. Without the merger AWA may have merged with DAL without the drag of the east there may not have been the fight not to merge.

But we did MERGE. None of that happened.

 

[CallawayGolf]

We didn't, we are where we are, and I see no other way out than to let a judge decide out fate.

The courts and judges are not the only solution and are completely unnecessary when all parties agree to honor and abide by their agreements. Courts have no jurisdiction over an undisputed agreement between private parties. It’s only when one or all of the parties in an agreement violate the terms and conditions in the same and fails to comply when the other party demands enforcement of the agreement that the courts can become involved at the request of the injured party. Management cannot agree to conspire with USAPA to violate the TA without risking a substantial penalty for doing so (which of course they are not). The west pilots cannot force USAPA to comply with the terms of the TA outside of the court's mandate and would not have the ability to violate the agreement even if all west pilots wanted to.

USAPA is the only party who can quickly and easily move the decision away from the courts and bring a resolution to this matter. The answer is simple – accept the NIC and stop asking Management to accept any seniority list other than the NIC. East pilots see the courts as offering the only solution because they are unwilling to accept the fact that violating agreements is illegal, immoral, and futile. The blindness you claim is self-inflicted but is completely reversible once you open your mind to the morally correct pathway and, of your own volition, determine to take it.

 

[Pi brat]

The courts and judges are not the only solution and are completely unnecessary when all parties agree to honor and abide by their agreements. Courts have no jurisdiction over an undisputed agreement between private parties. It’s only when one or all of the parties in an agreement violate the terms and conditions in the same and fails to comply when the other party demands enforcement of the agreement that the courts can become involved at the request of the injured party. Management cannot agree to conspire with USAPA to violate the TA without risking a substantial penalty for doing so (which of course they are not). The west pilots cannot force USAPA to comply with the terms of the TA outside of the court's mandate and would not have the ability to violate the agreement even if all west pilots wanted to.

USAPA is the only party who can quickly and easily move the decision away from the courts and bring a resolution to this matter. The answer is simple – accept the NIC and stop asking Management to accept any seniority list other than the NIC. East pilots see the courts as offering the only solution because they are unwilling to accept the fact that violating agreements is illegal, immoral, and futile. The blindness you claim is self-inflicted but is completely reversible once you open your mind to the morally correct pathway and, of your own volition, determine to take it.

If you can't see by now that the above is not going to happen, I don't know what to tell ya.