US Pilots Labor Discussion

[AWA320]

Why can't you folks grasp the difference betwwen a "ripe" case and a "winning" case? Just because an issue becomes "ripe' does not mean that you will prevail on the issue.

BY the way, the large font just makes your response harder to read. It doesn't help you make your tired, nonsensical point.

Its has become painfully obvious that you know very little about this case and zero about the law. You and your brethren are so full of emotion over thinking that an entire group owes you something that you completely mis the point. The whole purpose of the law suit I am betting is far beyond your ability to understand. Once you and your friends decided to form usapa with the express purpose of getting out of an agreement you took away the ability to negotiate between east and west. The east chose the extremely stupid position on the say so of one attorney to use majority against the minorty which is discriminatory at the very least. The Law suit was filed in part to not only preserve the west rights but to protect them as well.

Now you make half baked comments like "ripe' does not mean that you will prevail on the issue". without the ability to even understand the basics. Usapa has already lost at trial once so getting there again when ripeness is no longer an issue is an easy jump. The statement you make leads me to believe that you would much rather go to trial on the merits of the case. Well Oldie ME TOO!!! I would love for the case to be tried on the merits and the merits alone barring any injunction relief and going right for the heart of the matter. There you lose without some much as a question! The merits of this case are crystal clear and the fomation of usapa can easily be proven to be done so as to use majority to harm the minority, further there was a three way agreement to accept and be bound to the result of the arbitration. The only claim you THINK you have is fairness which any lawyer worth his weight will inform you that you have no claim here as that was taken into account during the process.

I hate making people look stupid as it gives me no real pleasure but your comments very often border on the insane. I feel that you have allowed your emotions to take hold without the benefit of intellect. This will prove to be your downfall.

AWA320

 

[No Land Green]

This is where we REALLY disagree. The east are the ones who want to continue on some trajectory from a point in the past when times were good (or at least better) rather than accept the precarious position they were in at the time. East f/o's and furloughees who were once captains think they have some pre-ordained right to recapture that trajectory based on their age and when they started their career at an airline that no longer exists except in name. They do not. Nor does the west.

I don't think any west pilot expects there to continue to be 2 and 3 and 4 year upgrades. They don't want to continue on some trajectory. They do not want to lose, nor should they lose, those upgrades or their relative position they attained up until that point, just because some on the east believe they did not earn it. They most certainly did earn it. At THEIR old company. Just like the east earned (or lost) what they had at YOUR old company.

The west (and the the nic award) seek to preserve what was actually there on the day of the merger, not some prediction of what might have been, should have been, once was, or could have been. It doesn't look to pick a point in the future, retirement in your example, and create some predetermined progression as you are suggesting. It does not look to see how long it took each side to get where they were. The west and the east are entitled to be placed in the same boat (or life raft if you prefer) at a place they were at the time LCC was created to rise and fall with the future tide together. It is simplicity at it's best. Junior pilots remain junior pilots of a bigger whole. Mid pilots remain mid pilots of a bigger whole. Senior pilots remain senior pilots of a bigger whole. Nic went even further to try to protect the most senior east pilots, as well as give a very fair (based on actual attrition from the left seat) 2/3 of upgrades to the east. And remember that until arbitration this was all open to negotiation. The east made no attempt to proffer any ideas, and left the arbitrator to come up with a solution on his own. It's not his job to merge both sides ideas. It's his job to come up with what he determines to be fair. Absent ideas from the east except "we're all in," you got what you got. The rest that the east complain about with regard to moving flying around, closing bases, bidding to new domiciles, growth aircraft, are all a product of merging two airlines.

That the award is so problematic for the east is not a matter of fairness or morality. It is a matter of pre determined expectations, which some would call entitlement. It's this "our way or the highway" that got the east into this mess in the first place. And decisions made since have limited your legal options, absent someone's capitulation. As you said, there may not be a solution you find acceptable. But a solution will eventually be determined and enforced one way or the other. The question is at what cost? That can only be answered by each pilot, east and west. Some here like to say it's the best money spent (or money lost wrt LOA 93). That's fine. That's your right. As long as you all realize that there COULD be some consequences down the road, financially and legally. And as long as you all don't expect the west to just roll over and give up by dragging things on forever. Just as the east claims to be OK with it, so does the west. The insults, tantrums, and flam bait on this forum (for those who partake) changes none of that.

In Theory Relative Position works ONLY when you have two identical entities that are to be meshed. This was clearly not the case in this Arbitration. BTW, I would love to see the Empire Pilot's have their DOH reinstated and the Trump Pilot's get their 1989 DOH reinstated........Two past integrations that I disagree with.

 

[Pi brat]

This is where we REALLY disagree. The east are the ones who want to continue on some trajectory from a point in the past when times were good (or at least better) rather than accept the precarious position they were in at the time. East f/o's and furloughees who were once captains think they have some pre-ordained right to recapture that trajectory based on their age and when they started their career at an airline that no longer exists except in name. They do not. Nor does the west.

I don't think any west pilot expects there to continue to be 2 and 3 and 4 year upgrades. They don't want to continue on some trajectory. They do not want to lose, nor should they lose, those upgrades or their relative position they attained up until that point, just because some on the east believe they did not earn it. They most certainly did earn it. At THEIR old company. Just like the east earned (or lost) what they had at YOUR old company.

The west (and the the nic award) seek to preserve what was actually there on the day of the merger, not some prediction of what might have been, should have been, once was, or could have been. It doesn't look to pick a point in the future, retirement in your example, and create some predetermined progression as you are suggesting. It does not look to see how long it took each side to get where they were. The west and the east are entitled to be placed in the same boat (or life raft if you prefer) at a place they were at the time LCC was created to rise and fall with the future tide together. It is simplicity at it's best. Junior pilots remain junior pilots of a bigger whole. Mid pilots remain mid pilots of a bigger whole. Senior pilots remain senior pilots of a bigger whole. Nic went even further to try to protect the most senior east pilots, as well as give a very fair (based on actual attrition from the left seat) 2/3 of upgrades to the east. And remember that until arbitration this was all open to negotiation. The east made no attempt to proffer any ideas, and left the arbitrator to come up with a solution on his own. It's not his job to merge both sides ideas. It's his job to come up with what he determines to be fair. Absent ideas from the east except "we're all in," you got what you got. The rest that the east complain about with regard to moving flying around, closing bases, bidding to new domiciles, growth aircraft, are all a product of merging two airlines.

That the award is so problematic for the east is not a matter of fairness or morality. It is a matter of pre determined expectations, which some would call entitlement. It's this "our way or the highway" that got the east into this mess in the first place. And decisions made since have limited your legal options, absent someone's capitulation. As you said, there may not be a solution you find acceptable. But a solution will eventually be determined and enforced one way or the other. The question is at what cost? That can only be answered by each pilot, east and west. Some here like to say it's the best money spent (or money lost wrt LOA 93). That's fine. That's your right. As long as you all realize that there COULD be some consequences down the road, financially and legally. And as long as you all don't expect the west to just roll over and give up by dragging things on forever. Just as the east claims to be OK with it, so does the west. The insults, tantrums, and flam bait on this forum (for those who partake) changes none of that.

OMG.......jetz, what do you base this view on? This board? Friends and/or relatives from AWA? Jumpseat conversations. It really chaps my rear end to have a UA pilot tell me what I think and what my(and my sisters) are driven by. Let me tell you, there are plenty of west F/Os that do think they are entitled to keep their trajectory, I've seen it in person.

You are absolutely wrong about the east not making any offer or having any idea prior to arbitration. You are believing what you want to believe(from the west) because it supports your view of the world and helps vent your anger from the US/UA merger. I went to the source and asked what was being thrown around. NEITHER side could come up with a solution, and ALPA merger policy made it easy to push it off on an arbitrator.

You say that the west and the Nic seek to preserve what was there on the day of the merger. The problem with that is that a lot of what was there isn't here anymore. The pie is smaller and Nic gave a larger part to the west pilots. The majority of the east pilots think he got it wrong and are trying to appeal it, whether there was an appeal road or not. We will see who was right, but the moral mud slinging and other b.s. going on here is just that, b.s. and I will counter it when I see it.

 

[Pi brat]

I hate making people look stupid as it gives me no real pleasure but your comments very often border on the insane. I feel that you have allowed your emotions to take hold without the benefit of intellect. This will prove to be your downfall.

AWA320

I can tell that it is really tearing you up inside. Tell me, how is that how lawsuit thing working for you? If it is going to be so easy to prove DFR II, why not do everything humanly possible to get there and let's move on?

I have come to believe that there are plenty of stupid people running things on both sides of the Mississippi.

 

[AWA320]

You say that the west and the Nic seek to preserve what was there on the day of the merger. The problem with that is that a lot of what was there isn't here anymore. The pie is smaller and Nic gave a larger part to the west pilots. The majority of the east pilots think he got it wrong and are trying to appeal it, whether there was an appeal road or not. We will see who was right, but the moral mud slinging and other b.s. going on here is just that, b.s. and I will counter it when I see it.

OMG!! Completely clueless 🙁 . The pie got smaller as is often the case in any consolidation but my share did not grow one once. I am within 2% of where I was without you that I am with you. This misguided belief that you and the east have that we got this huge lions share is preposterous. Here we are in the west as we have been all along preaching actually begging for fairness and all the east wants is super seniority and the ability to do what they COULD NOT do on their stand alone list and that is go from jr reserve first officer to mid level to senior west captain. Yeah how could I have been so blind as to not see the fairness in that lottery ticket. Opps forgive me as thats not a lottery ticket at all, only that honor can bestowed upon us in the west 🙄

Carry on with this usless debate, you guys make my sick ache...

AWA320

 

[767jetz]

I'll keep telling myself that because it is correct, no other reason.

You're entitled to YOUR opinion on anything. In this case, it just happens to be wrong.

Hmmm... So everyone is entitled to an opinion, but only yours is correct. Got it.

opinion - n. a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge but on what seems true, valid, or probable to one's own mind. a view. a conviction. sentiment.

narcissism - n. self love; excessive interest in one's own appearance, comfort, importance, abilities, etc.

 

[AWA320]

I can tell that it is really tearing you up inside. Tell me, how is that how lawsuit thing working for you? If it is going to be so easy to prove DFR II, why not do everything humanly possible to get there and let's move on?

I have come to believe that there are plenty of stupid people running things on both sides of the Mississippi.

I give up, Pi I hope you get everything want and deserve including the ability to not honor agreements and leap frog all you want. USAir for all intents and purposes is toast. East and west will NEVER work the same aircraft due to saftey concerns thus rendering this place a liability. No other airline would be stupid enough to even consider getting with usair and franky I hope it tanks. There wil be far more opportunities out there with lcc defunct... Best of luck with your future endeavors.

AWA320

 

[Pi brat]

OMG!! Completely clueless 🙁 . The pie got smaller as is often the case in any consolidation but my share did not grow one once. I am within 2% of where I was without you that I am with you. This misguided belief that you and the east have that we got this huge lions share is preposterous. Here we are in the west as we have been all along preaching actually begging for fairness and all the east wants is super seniority and the ability to do what they COULD NOT do on their stand alone list and that is go from jr reserve first officer to mid level to senior west captain. Yeah how could I have been so blind as to not see the fairness in that lottery ticket. Opps forgive me as thats not a lottery ticket at all, only that honor can bestowed upon us in the west 🙄

Carry on with this usless debate, you guys make my sick ache...

AWA320

Maybe you could rewrite this so it makes some sense, but I will try to see if I understand you.

You are not any better off, but had the Nic been implemented you would be and there is the rub for you guys. Here's and example:

Pilot B was hired at AWA on 11/98. He is not and has never been a captain or widebody F/O. On the west list he is around 59%, but if the Nic were implemented tomorrow he would jump to 53% and have several HUNDRED captains and widebody F/Os behind him.

AOL had fed a lot of b.s. and you guys have eaten it up with a spoon.

 

[767jetz]

In Theory Relative Position works ONLY when you have two identical entities that are to be meshed.

Let's be clear and point out that this is your opinion. One to which I disagree. As do most recent arbitrators. Having identical entities has nothing to do with relative seniority. That's the whole point. Actually having two identical entities (which never exists in a merger) is the best argument for DOH. In that case DOH is perfect BECAUSE both sides are identical. Anything other than two identical entities is where relative seniority is the most fair.

 

[No Land Green]

This misguided belief that you and the east have that we got this huge lions share is preposterous. Here we are in the west as we have been all along preaching actually begging for fairness and all the east wants is super seniority and the ability to do what they COULD NOT do on their stand alone list and that is go from jr reserve first officer to mid level to senior west captain. Yeah how could I have been so blind as to not see the fairness in that lottery ticket. Opps forgive me as thats not a lottery ticket at all,


AWA320

Let's see with NIC when a West Pilot comes East he/she gets "super seniority". With DOH when an East Pilot comes West he/she gets "super seniority". East has nearly 4 to 1 attrition over the West when age 65 "ripens". Apples to Oranges. ALPA Merger Policy Process did not address these issues. There it is in a nutshell. Yep, neither method is fair now is it? So maybe we should just use active time on each other's property to establish Seniority. The West has had furloughs in the past prior to 2005. Please correct me if I am wrong. So your active time will have to be adjusted, just as it would have to be on the East.

So in reality, there is NO fair way to do this. Separate Ops may be the only answer. Way too much venom between East and West to operate out of the Red and Yellow.

 

[767jetz]

We will see who was right, but the moral mud slinging and other b.s. going on here is just that, b.s. and I will counter it when I see it.

On this we agree. And so will I.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Have you ever noticed you argue both sides? You said that you weren't aware of them returning airplanes, but then you say they suffered a bigger % of reductions.

That was apparently my misunderstanding of what you were saying/asking. I thought you meant the EARLY return of aircraft, not as some of the leases expired and weren't renewed. Old US reached the agreement with GECAS that resulted in returning 20+ airplanes in early 2005 and gave GECAS the right to recall more airplanes early in the 2008-2009 timeframe IIRC. EARLY returns to GECAS in exchange for lower lease payments. There were also other provisions concerning the power by the hour contract on the GE engines and bridge financing to be offered by GECAS plus some RJ financing provisions. In answering your question earlier, I meant that I wasn't aware of any EARLY aircraft returns by HP. The GECAS agreement was approved by the judge in Jan 2005, along with similar agreements with Embraer and Bombardier - East dropped their delivery schedule except for near term deliveries (less than 6 months or so away) in exchange for getting their pre-delivery payments back. But you'll note that the 2005 report discusses none of the US airplane agreements that were effective prior to the merger and since most of that info is only in the annual report the 2004 US report wouldn't have it either. Plus, the agreements with Airbus that coinsided with the merger, included in the 2005 report, is so heavily redacted that no details are readily available. I went through all of those documents filed with the BK court as they were filed, and the court filings gave a lot more details.

This whole discussion is like you say - two people with terminal cancer arguing about who will live longer. No one really knows the answer until one actually dies first - would something have happened that allowed either US or HP or both to survive as stand alone carriers? Possibly. Could US have survived longer? Possibly although it was basically out of ways to raise cash since everything was collateral for various loans and had gone through all the cash it has raised during BK plus $400+ million of the cash it had when entering BK.

It's that last sentence above that in early 2005 lead me to believe I would probably not have a job to retire from when I turned 60 in late 2006. US, at that moment in time, was in worse shape financially with no if's, and's, or but's - nothing left to use for raising cash and running out of cash. But who knows - maybe another Bronner would have come along with a billion or two in spare cash and a burning desire to be the owner of an airline...

Jim

 

[No Land Green]

Let's be clear and point out that this is your opinion. One to which I disagree. As do most recent arbitrators. Having identical entities has nothing to do with relative seniority. That's the whole point. Actually having two identical entities (which never exists in a merger) is the best argument for DOH. In that case DOH is perfect BECAUSE both sides are identical. Anything other than two identical entities is where relative seniority is the most fair.

So you are saying that if UAL merged with Republic, "Anything other than two identical entities is where relative seniority is the most fair"?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I was quoting the usapa update. So it they "missed" anything about the T/A talk to them.

Anything else you want to spout off about that you don't know what you are talking about?

You were quoting an update without reading the whole filing either? Talk about spouting off without knowing what your talking about!, MM! 40watts

 

[AWE Dog]

With the nic the west's bottom pilot is a instant widebody international f/o. From an airlline with NO widebody flying!!! And you say this isn't a windfall? It only gets better as you go up the list.