US Pilots Labor Discussion

[sumadarson]

Did you actually bother to read this opinion? Particularly paras 13-16? Here, let me cut and paste paragraph 16 for all to read:

"Here, even assuming that the DOT's final order actually decided the question of whether the 1985 agreement had proven substantively fair to the Empire pilots, it did not directly answer the question of whether the procedures under which the Empire pilots' seniority rights were determined were fair. Standing alone, the fact that a merger might result in improved wages or working conditions for a group of employees, as the DOT found here, does not necessarily prove that the union has done all it should have done to further those employees' interests."

AWA and AAA had a process and that process was completed.

USAPA doesn't have a prayer of ever achieving DOH at this point. All you guys are doing is wasting the remaining years of your career on BK wages.

My prediction of the cherry picking came true, I did not doubt that for a moment.

No, I did not read it before I posted it. You West guys caught me again. (Sarcastic response)

You west gentlemen always start your posts out like this, ie did you read this. You underestimated us all along, you are in legal twilight zone and you dare to ask this. Sir, you are not communicating with one of your zombie badge backers here.

You asked why the Empire pilots can not get DOH in the future, I answered that with a link. Do not light a fire on the other side of the room because of your ignorance of facts.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I disagree. The information you refer to in the MDA suit was not readily available to the line pilot. This was a long, arduous discovery process. I learned a little from each former MDA pilot I flew with. The ALPA EAST MEC was not giving ANY of this information to us. This honestly did not have anything to do with the Nic as far as I was concerned. This was just one more, of numerous transgressions that got ALPA launched. We got rid of ALPA, and it took out every East MEC member who had a hand in this in one swift kill. Knowing what these guys did with regard to MDA(east mec) would you have not taken the shot to eliminate them yourself? Or let them stay?

There's a saying about politics that also applies to unions. You don't get the representation you deserve, you get the representation you elect. How many base reps lost their position after the pension give away? After the E170 sale agreement? After LOA 93? Deep electing most of the same people, then following blindly till the promised DOH didn't materialize. And that is always the problem the East has had - blindly doing what the MEC said was best. Ask yourself this - I know what I know about the MDA situation by taking the time to educate myself. Why didn't more of the pilots?

How do you fight min fleet when you signed on the dotted line?

What that has to do with the MDA situation is a mystery?

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

The following is what you witnessed at your own previous airline you worked for, and represented them as an ALPA Rep and stood by and did nothing.

If you had the slightest clue you might be worth listening to...

Jim

 

[sumadarson]

Auquagreed,

Love the size of your original response and then what you added later as evident from above. You 28j Jacobs and law firm taught you to keep adding to you argument like you did above.

 

[sumadarson]

If you had the slightest clue you might be worth listening to...

Jim

Oh my god boeing boy, brilliant response, you would of put me away in a court of law where they require substance of ones argument. (tongue in cheek)

 

[nic4us]

But USAPA will fix the underlying problem going forward regardless of the results of their DFR.

RR

I have tried to understand what the heck happened with the MDA pilots. Both in a perspective of what is their beef against ALPA, and how do the east posters think this could possibly effect the Nic.

The conclusion I have drawn has less to do with who is right and who was wrong and/or wronged. That is almost indecipherable from this mess.

What I have concluded was that the underlying problem was not ALPA national or the east MEC, but the position those two participants were put in due to the complete failure of the former USAirways.

Well, for me, the underlying problem has been identified. The company that was too lame to get the second operating certificate going, or finish the deal with the PIT based airline, or whatever other bad worm you people can pull out of the woodwork in regards to evolution of this fiasco, is from a West perspective inconsequential. Just another example of how messed up the east's airline was prior to the merger.

From the West's daily operating standpoint...ALPA national=gone...east MEC=gone...AAA=gone. Go ahead and sue any or all of them, does not effect me, the West or the Nic.

I do believe RR is right though, usapa will do whatever, regardless of their DFR.

 

[AWA320]

The West does not think that way, remember, they should not get a dime!!!

You dont have the faintest clue about what you are talking about !!

AWA320

 

[aquagreen73s]

You asked why the Empire pilots can not get DOH in the future, I answered that with a link. Do not light a fire on the other side of the room because of your ignorance of facts.

Well then, you clearly did not comprehend the plain writing of the 2nd Circuit. ALPA didn't agree to adjust the Piedmont seniority list three years after the Empire merger and that refusal based on the facts presented was not a DFR. That's the holding in the case you cited. The case in no way stands for the proposition that a union can't adjust seniority under any circumstances. Heck, where have you been for the last four years? Your own esteemed lawyer cites Rakestraw v. ALPA which is the one case where a union decided to adjust seniority and under those facts the court found that it wasn't a DFR for ALPA to do that. The 7th Cir. found that for public policy reasons, it was ok in the very narrow circumstances of a strike, a company change in policy of when hiring occurs to so that they can get replacement pilots on line ASAP, strike ends and now you've got 570 newhires who honored the picked line but were placed behind the scabs. In that very very limited case, it was found not to be DFR to change seniority. The problem for USAPA is that the integrated list was generated by a process that is presumed to be procedurally and substantively fair - arbitrations. So good luck trying to convince anyone that you're being "more fair" to all by disregarding an arbitrated list. No one is buying it. But to get back to your earlier failure to read and comprehend, the case you cite DOES NOT stand for the proposition that a union cannot alter a seniority list.

 

[AWA320]

Well..yes and no.

Profit sharing is spelled out in the TA. The TA is the contractual restraints that are the controlling factor. The TA states that the east will operate on the east contract and the West will operate on the West contract until there is a joint contract. Further, the TA states that the pilots portion of the company profit sharing pool will be 36% of the total pool. That the two MECs will determine a distribution method etc. If your arguement that the east voted to "give" the West profit sharing were controlling, how do you explain the profit sharing from the remaining 64% of the pool that goes to other West employees?

The West pilots portion is contractually spelled out in the TA. The West pilots signed off on the TA in exchange for modifications and supplements to our CBA. Also, the language says that distribution will be determined by the two MECs. When the TA was signed, a method had not been determined yet. So, it would be left to the MECs to decide that method, they did, we now have that method of distribution. The TA does not say that the method will be determined annually, or upon every instance of disbursment, or reconsidered once established. Just that the MECs will decide, they did, done deal.

I would say that if usapa tries to adjust the method of distribution, the end result will be that neither side will recieve a check. The company will either be allowed to keep the money with a future iou to the pilots, or have to put it into escrow, while the pilot group fights over the distribution method.

If the east wants pay parity for all pilots, we have to have a joint contract, so says the TA. If we want to have a joint contract, we have to use the Nic, so says the TA. If we want to recieve profit sharing, it will be distributed to "all USAIrways pilots, east and West", so says the TA.

It doesnt get any clearer than that! I would also like to add that the west MEC also wrote resolutions to support the east while the east never once offered the west pilots a thing and I do mean NOTHING!!! I believe that all pilots of this company should be paid the same based on equipment. I also believe that people should honor their word and when deals are made people should stick to them. There is not one single west pilot that caused the east to be under LOA93 nor is there a west pilot that took the east pensions or caused any of the awful things that has happened in their careers. We should not have to pay for the east careers with ours nor would I expect them to pay for mine with with theirs.

AWA320

 

[nic4us]

USAPA doesn't have a prayer of ever achieving DOH at this point. All you guys are doing is wasting the remaining years of your career on BK wages.

Aqua,

They never had a prayer of achieving DOH at any point, including prior to the Nic.

It would be fine with me if they wanted to waste their time chasing their tails, but I have major problems with their behavior.

First and foremost, they are costing me money over the ever shortening remainder of my career.

Second, they are intentionally inflicting harm against the West for their benefit.

Third, they have proven to be unworthy of any trust, are incapable of obtaining a working agreement, and have actively used questionable means in attempts to harm the company.

They are doing quite a bit more than wasting their time and careers.

 

[sumadarson]

Well then, you clearly did not comprehend the plain writing of the 2nd Circuit. ALPA didn't agree to adjust the Piedmont seniority list and that refusal based on the facts presented was not a DFR. That's the holding in the case you cited. The case in no way stands for the proposition that a union can't adjust seniority under any circumstances. Heck, where have you been for the last four years? Your own esteemed lawyer cites Rakestraw v. ALPA which is the one case where a union decided to adjust seniority and under those facts the court found that it wasn't a DFR for ALPA to do that. The 7th Cir. found that for public policy reasons, it was ok in the very narrow circumstances of a strike, a company change in policy of when hiring occurs to so that they can get replacement pilots on line ASAP, strike ends and now you've got 570 newhires who honored the picked line but were placed behind the scabs. In that very very limited case, it was found not to be DFR to change seniority. The problem for USAPA is that the integrated list was generated by a process that is presumed to be procedurally and substantively fair - arbitrations. So good luck trying to convince anyone that you're being "more fair" to all by disregarding an arbitrated list. No one is buying it. But to get back to your earlier failure to read and comprehend, the case you cite DOES NOT stand for the proposition that a union cannot alter a seniority list.

Sir, in your post in the previous pages you asked me why the Empire Pilots can not get date of hire now using USAPA's help. I posted a link to an appellate decision that rendered the Empire Pilots ability to gain in seniority today moot, thanks to the "esteemed" Airline Pilots Association.

Now you are going off to a different area of argument regarding the West vs USAPA. Your group, including the lame law firm that you spent millions of dollars on, can not focus. This is why your legal gluetus maximus has been handed to you in a court of law thus far.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Aqua,

They never had a prayer of achieving DOH at any point, including prior to the Nic.

I would agree completely with that statement provided the following caveat is added: They never had a chance of achieving DOH at any point PROVIDED the West either laid down and didn't fight, or the West MEC somehow caved and relinquished rights from the arbitration decision. We clearly didn't lay down nor are we running out of resources to continue to fight. Plus, once the West MEC was dissolved, then that eliminated any possibility of some sort of back room deal where our agent (our MEC in this case) gave away our rights. That's what happened in the Empire case and it's too bad. Once that happens, it's more or less over for the members. Forget ever winning a DFR. Ironically, USAPA itself has insured that there won't be any compromise as there is no West MEC to compromise with. Now for them it's either LOA 93 and no Nic, or payraises and the Nic.

It would be fine with me if they wanted to waste their time chasing their tails, but I have major problems with their behavior.

Agreed.

First and foremost, they are costing me money over the ever shortening remainder of my career.

True, but you and I both have a lot longer than the 1000 or so East pilots who are within a few weeks, months or years of permanent unemployment. For me, I've got over two decades to amortize these losses. Plus let's be real: the pie is only so big, and a lot of it has to go to bringing the East up to parity and the work rules we enjoy on the West. After that, how much will be left in the pie for the entire pilot group? The downside is the time element as we'd be gearing up now for another contract and that one would be an improvement for East and West alike, not just the East as will be the case in this contract.

Second, they are intentionally inflicting harm against the West for their benefit.

True again, but who's really suffering? Federal law obviously is not geared towards preventing unions from inflicting self harm upon themselves, and the propensity to shoot themselves in both feet has been demonstrated time and again. For the foreseeable future, that is our lot in life. Sucks, I know.

Third, they have proven to be unworthy of any trust, are incapable of obtaining a working agreement, and have actively used questionable means in attempts to harm the company.

Yup. Take heart though; they're giving a comedy troupe like Monte Python oodles of material.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Sir, in your post in the previous pages you asked me why the Empire Pilots can not get date of hire now using USAPA's help. I posted a link to an appellate decision that rendered the Empire Pilots ability to gain in seniority today moot, thanks to the "esteemed" Airline Pilots Association.

Now you are going off to a different area of argument regarding the West vs USAPA. Your group, including the lame law firm that you spent millions of dollars on, can not focus. This is why your legal gluetus maximus has been handed to you in a court of law thus far.

Read the case. The holding is that it was not a DFR for ALPA to refuse to reorder the Piedmont list three years after the Empire merger. That's all the case says. You need to read it and if you still can't understand it, ask a seventh grader. Maybe they can explain it to you.

 

[nic4us]

This is why your legal gluetus maximus has been handed to you in a court of law thus far.

Lets see...the minority group, against all odds, beat the majority, has held off their attempted DFR union, has removed any doubt as to whether there will be a statute of limitations issue if usapa ever gets a DOH contract (something I personally do not fear that much as it is nothing more than a remote possibility), forced the company to take action toward resolution, and successfully put usapa in a position of impotency.

Yeah, I would call that having our gm handed to us.

Take a big bite of the sandwhich we served usapa, plenty more where that came from, now that we have our ass back.

 

[sumadarson]

Read the case. The holding is that it was not a DFR for ALPA to refuse to reorder the Piedmont list three years after the Empire merger. That's all the case says. You need to read it and if you still can't understand it, ask a seventh grader. Maybe they can explain it to you.

Read it? Okay, read the link that I posted, good idea. (satire)

My prediction of cherry picking a case and being asked to read a case, predicted by my previous posts. Your statement about the seventh grader explaining to me, predicted by my post of how you underestimated the East, then and now.

Your future sir.

Usairways declaratory judgment, dismissed.

Usairways appeals. Usiarways pilots released for self help.

USAPA DOH in the contract.

DFR 2 filed and lost by you after five years plus.