US Pilots Labor Discussion

[oldiebutgoody]

Oh. I see. So you can't steal profit sharing from one side since there is no "other" side. Only one unified pilot group. So when USAPA showed up there was no longer an east or west. No separate ops. And everyone on one combined nic seniority list, awaiting a contract from the new collective bargaining agent. Glad to see you are accepting reality (however reluctantly).

Or is it that you selectively decide when there is no east or west (can't steal profit sharing; want pay parity; union dues; etc.), and when there is east and west (separate ops forever; lawsuits; etc.). Sounds like a familiar tune. 🙄

I don't know of anyone on the East side trying to steal anything. Certainly not anything as HUGE as what the West guys are trying to steal.

USAPA represents ALL US Airways pilots. Even though we may have separate ops, and during separate ops they have to deal with two separate contracts, they represent all.

Very unlike ALPA, that only really represents the officers of the organization at everyone else's expense.

ALPA's motto: All for one, as long as that one is ME!

 

[767one]

Fear, ignorance, greed, narcissism are all apt descriptions of those who oppose the NIC. Fear that it will change the seniority position more than it actually does, which is the same as ignorance in this case. Greed because they know that DOH will propel them well beyond what their unmerged seniority number would previously hold (especially on 9/27/2005). Narcissism because they have no regard for breaking contractual obligations when it serves their own self interests while bringing damage & harm to those on the other side of the agreement.

Doesn't change much for me Callaway. I have been stagnent #1 one the 75/76 since 2002.

Regards,

Bob Moore

 

[nic4us]

I don't know of anyone on the East side trying to steal anything. Certainly not anything as HUGE as what the West guys are trying to steal.

Oldie,

What is it that the West is trying to steal?

Name anything, I know you can't, because the West pilots has never tried to take anything from the east pilots.

Same can't be said for usapa, the RICO charging, seniority stealing, profit sharing reviewing, intentionally delaying, information censoring, piece of dog do excuse for a pilots association.

 

[FL430]

Many of us happen to know lawyers. Like anything in life, some are better than others. I am an aquaintence of one of our ILWU attorneys and neighbor to a federal judge and two of our children are best friends. Since I started paying attention to your mess, my neighbor called the 9th's ruling, along with the motion to reconsider, en banc petition, the rule 60b joke and the motion to transfer. The Ferderal rules provide comments to the rules to aid judges in decisions and he was pretty emphatic about how it would turn out when I gave him some of the details. Granted he is a democrat and has a more liberal orientation but he was dead on. Of course, he would be the first to admit he has been wrong and had decisions overturned but in these instances I was impressed on how closely he called things. I have had less interaction with our union attorney but he shared similar thoughts.

Both of them share your union's opinion that the dicta included in the 9th's decision was meant to inform the parties of what view the court would take with a refiling of the case or a similar case were it to return to them. I am not saying he is going to be right but he certainly has called much of what occurred dead on. I am no lawyer and have never claimed to be like some on here and only relay what I consider to be valid legal opinion. The only opinions I have offered that are my own are on the nature of unions and seniority. I think you all are going to find that the Declaratory Judgement complaint filed by your company will not make it to trial because the 9th has already made clear, the union is free to bargain and there is no way a court can grant some blanket immunity for an unknown complaint without running afoul of the ripeness doctrine.

Spot on!

What you will probably see when the dismissals begin is dicta in those judgements that reiterate much of the 9th's opinion as well as education that any agreement may be modified, your transition agreement is a placeholder agreement until a completed single contract replaces it. The terms and conditions to complete it are between the company and the Collective Bargaining Agent and that your company owes no Duty of Fair Representation, and in large part is indemnified by the Union being the responsible party. Your own company has been emphatic the seniority is the unions deal and as long as it meets the conditions of the company to not create significant training costs, it meets the conditions of your Transition Agreement and they could care less the makeup.

 

[traderjake]

I don't know of anyone on the East side trying to steal anything.

Then you don't know anything.

 

[fodase]

Many of us happen to know lawyers. Like anything in life, some are better than others. I am an aquaintence of one of our ILWU attorneys and neighbor to a federal judge and two of our children are best friends. Since I started paying attention to your mess, my neighbor called the 9th's ruling, along with the motion to reconsider, en banc petition, the rule 60b joke and the motion to transfer. The Ferderal rules provide comments to the rules to aid judges in decisions and he was pretty emphatic about how it would turn out when I gave him some of the details. Granted he is a democrat and has a more liberal orientation but he was dead on. Of course, he would be the first to admit he has been wrong and had decisions overturned but in these instances I was impressed on how closely he called things. I have had less interaction with our union attorney but he shared similar thoughts.

Both of them share your union's opinion that the dicta included in the 9th's decision was meant to inform the parties of what view the court would take with a refiling of the case or a similar case were it to return to them. I am not saying he is going to be right but he certainly has called much of what occurred dead on. I am no lawyer and have never claimed to be like some on here and only relay what I consider to be valid legal opinion. The only opinions I have offered that are my own are on the nature of unions and seniority. I think you all are going to find that the Declaratory Judgement complaint filed by your company will not make it to trial because the 9th has already made clear, the union is free to bargain and there is no way a court can grant some blanket immunity for an unknown complaint without running afoul of the ripeness doctrine.

What you will probably see when the dismissals begin is dicta in those judgements that reiterate much of the 9th's opinion as well as education that any agreement may be modified, your transition agreement is a placeholder agreement until a completed single contract replaces it. The terms and conditions to complete it are between the company and the Collective Bargaining Agent and that your company owes no Duty of Fair Representation, and in large part is indemnified by the Union being the responsible party. Your own company has been emphatic the seniority is the unions deal and as long as it meets the conditions of the company to not create significant training costs, it meets the conditions of your Transition Agreement and they could care less the makeup.

ROACLT,

I am curious as to what you or your neighbors think about the following dicta: "under pain of an unquestionably ripe dfr" what in your opinion does that mean?

 

[767jetz]

Exactly. People who love themselves excessively are most likely to think that rules and laws do not apply to them. They are unconcerned with how their actions affect others because their self-love is so far out of balance that they are incapable of abiding by the rules of society. This description fits the USAPA faithful to a tee. Feel free to explore publications beyond Dictionary.com and substitute "East Pilots" every time you see the word "narcissist" and you will gain a true picture of what the irrational in inappropriate physiological mindset of the east is.

One more interesting point. Narcissists also do not see others as individuals with their own needs and wants. Everyone is an extension of their own false self, existing only to uphold that perception of self importance. Narcissists never see themselves as being wrong.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

"Narcissistic Personality Disorder involves arrogant behavior, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration-all of which must be consistently evident at work and in relationships. People who are narcissistic are frequently described as cocky, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding. Narcissists may concentrate on unlikely personal outcomes (e.g., fame) and may be convinced that they deserve special treatment."

Definition

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism."

NPD and the serial bully

The comparison can go on and on and on...

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Then you don't know anything.

Oh, I forgot. There are a few ALPAphiles left that want to steal jobs and seniority. Many never got over not being allowed to do it over 22 years ago. Many of them haven't been happy since they got to steal the Empire guys' seniority 24+ years ago.

You're right. I stand corrected.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

One more interesting point. Narcissists also do not see others as individuals with their own needs and wants. Everyone is an extension of their own false self, existing only to uphold that perception of self importance. Narcissists never see themselves as being wrong.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

"Narcissistic Personality Disorder involves arrogant behavior, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration-all of which must be consistently evident at work and in relationships. People who are narcissistic are frequently described as cocky, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding. Narcissists may concentrate on unlikely personal outcomes (e.g., fame) and may be convinced that they deserve special treatment."

Definition

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism."

NPD and the serial bully

The comparison can go on and on and on...

An EXACT description of one that would continue to post on a discussion board of another company, continually insisting that they knowi everything about the company they are NOT affiliated with.

I knew it had to have a name.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

ROACLT,

I am curious as to what you or your neighbors think about the following dicta: "under pain of an unquestionably ripe dfr" what in your opinion does that mean?

You know, just because a case becomes "ripe", it does not mean you'll win it.

I know we keep going over this, but it isn't sinking into your thick skull.

 

[cactusboy53]

Legal definition of Binding Arbitration (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Mediation-Arbitration):

Arbitration

Arbitration more closely resembles traditional litigation in that a neutral third party hears the disputants' arguments and imposes a final and binding decision that is enforceable by the courts. The difference is that in arbitration, the disputants generally agreed to the procedure before the dispute arose; the disputants mutually decide who will hear their case; and the proceedings are typically less formal than in a court of law. One extremely important difference is that, unlike court decisions, arbitration offers almost no effective appeal process. Thus, when an arbitration decision is issued, the case is ended.

Final and binding arbitration has long been used in labor-management disputes. For decades, unions and employers have found it mutually advantageous to have a knowledgeable arbitrator—whom they have chosen—resolve their disputes in this cheaper and faster fashion. One primary advantage for both sides has been that taking disputes to arbitration has kept everyone working by providing an alternative to strikes and lockouts and has kept everyone out of the courts. Given this very successful track record, the commercial world has become enthusiastic about arbitration for other types of disputes as well.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't know of anyone on the East side trying to steal anything...

You do remember that a prerequisite to be an East pilot was four years of proven service with Robin Hood's pack? It was the best alternative to being a transient resident of Australia.

 

[mikey60]

Many of us happen to know lawyers. Like anything in life, some are better than others. I am an aquaintence of one of our ILWU attorneys and neighbor to a federal judge and two of our children are best friends. Since I started paying attention to your mess, my neighbor called the 9th's ruling, along with the motion to reconsider, en banc petition, the rule 60b joke and the motion to transfer. The Ferderal rules provide comments to the rules to aid judges in decisions and he was pretty emphatic about how it would turn out when I gave him some of the details. Granted he is a democrat and has a more liberal orientation but he was dead on. Of course, he would be the first to admit he has been wrong and had decisions overturned but in these instances I was impressed on how closely he called things. I have had less interaction with our union attorney but he shared similar thoughts.

Both of them share your union's opinion that the dicta included in the 9th's decision was meant to inform the parties of what view the court would take with a refiling of the case or a similar case were it to return to them. I am not saying he is going to be right but he certainly has called much of what occurred dead on. I am no lawyer and have never claimed to be like some on here and only relay what I consider to be valid legal opinion. The only opinions I have offered that are my own are on the nature of unions and seniority. I think you all are going to find that the Declaratory Judgement complaint filed by your company will not make it to trial because the 9th has already made clear, the union is free to bargain and there is no way a court can grant some blanket immunity for an unknown complaint without running afoul of the ripeness doctrine.

What you will probably see when the dismissals begin is dicta in those judgements that reiterate much of the 9th's opinion as well as education that any agreement may be modified, your transition agreement is a placeholder agreement until a completed single contract replaces it. The terms and conditions to complete it are between the company and the Collective Bargaining Agent and that your company owes no Duty of Fair Representation, and in large part is indemnified by the Union being the responsible party. Your own company has been emphatic the seniority is the unions deal and as long as it meets the conditions of the company to not create significant training costs, it meets the conditions of your Transition Agreement and they could care less the makeup.

I think this means CHECKMATE!!!!!

 

[fodase]

I think this means CHECKMATE!!!!!

So what is this dicta about? :
"By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bar-
gain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members
— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe
DFR suit, once a contract is ratified."

 

[mikey60]

So what is this dicta about? :
"By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bar-
gain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members
— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe
DFR suit, once a contract is ratified."

Fold up the board and put away the chess pieces, the game is over. Remember CHECKMATE!!!