US Pilots Labor Discussion

[oldiebutgoody]

So what is this dicta about? :
"By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bar-
gain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members
— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe
DFR suit, once a contract is ratified."

it means that you have to wait until a contract is ratified before you get to lose your next DFR case.

 

[usabusdriver]

So why all the delay then? Who is in charge of the Company Parker or Cleary? If what you say is true, then why hasn't Parker told EVERY Pilot here that the NIC IS the List that will be used?

Didn't Parker say the list was in "dispute" and that there would be "no contract" until it is not?

Interesting how DAL/NWA had a JCBA before seniority was determined, CAL/UAL are doing the same, yet Parker can't do the same. In his mind the list is in "dispute", so why can't he come up with a TA for us sans section 22.........I know the ALPA spin, not to lose more dues revenue. Parker's reasons, and NOT USAPA as the reason.

No Land,

When it comes to delay, Parker et al make out fine. I think it is a failure of leadership not to take a stand on this issue. Either the Nic is the list, or the Nic is not the list, and whatever the union proposes goes. Make a decision already boys, let us move on, there may be litigation, but we need to be moving forward instead of being stuck in limbo.

I asked L. Hogg the other day the very question you propose here, namely why can we not get a contract and have an LOA that states there will be no cross bidding, east/west in any permanent bid until section 22 is determined via _____________ insert appropriate term, court - union - management decision, whatever, at a later date and get us a contract that gives us improvements because we will have a period of "implementation" anyway. Our illustrious managerial group has yet to determine - nor (gasp) purchase a new crew scheduling system. His answer to the crew scheduling system is that they would have to program it for both east and west contracts then reprogram for a joint contract and that costs money and would be a waste, but his only comment on getting a contract without section 22 determined was that it wouldn't pass ratification.

We can get a new contract and by the time it is reprogrammed for the joint contract (12 to 18 months) then allow cross bidding, we should have an answer on the seniority system list and we can move on finally. This food fight over seniority is getting beyond ridiculous. The company has been a facilitator of this divisive fight. It is time for a new contract.

 

[CV580ETOPS]

Doesn't change much for me Callaway. I have been stagnent #1 one the 75/76 since 2002. [/u]
Regards,

Bob Moore

A hollow victory when you take into consideration the fact that your 767 widebody international rate is 50/hr less than what Air Tran pilots are getting flying narrowbody 737's domestically. Oh well low pay to the last day, right Bob ?

CV

 

[sumadarson]

One more interesting point. Narcissists also do not see others as individuals with their own needs and wants. Everyone is an extension of their own false self, existing only to uphold that perception of self importance. Narcissists never see themselves as being wrong.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

"Narcissistic Personality Disorder involves arrogant behavior, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration-all of which must be consistently evident at work and in relationships. People who are narcissistic are frequently described as cocky, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding. Narcissists may concentrate on unlikely personal outcomes (e.g., fame) and may be convinced that they deserve special treatment."

Definition

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism."

NPD and the serial bully

You are a pilot for United. You are an ALPA rep. You have something in common with america west pilots.

jetz and united pilot pals down under, with alpa' blessing

 

[fodase]

it means that you have to wait until a contract is ratified before you get to lose your next DFR case.

We won the first dfr case due to overwhelming evidence. Just read the 9th's decision again and here is the first paragraph under discussion:

"[1] Although considerable time, effort, and expense have
been devoted to the merits of Plaintiffs’ DFR claim before
both this Court and the district court, we are without jurisdic-
tion to address the merits of the claim unless it is ripe. See S.
Pac. Transp. Co. v. City of L.A., 922 F.2d 498, 502 (9th Cir.
1990). We review ripeness de novo. See Manufactured Home
Cmtys. Inc. v. City of San Jose, 420 F.3d 1022, 1025 (9th Cir.
2005); Laub v. U.S. Dep’t of Interior, 342 F.3d 1080, 1084
(9th Cir. 2003). If the claim before us is not ripe, we must dis-
miss. See S. Pac. Transp., 922 F.2d at 502. "

So none of the dfr merits were even looked at by the 9th.

Here is what it says a little further down:

"Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3 "

So they are saying that usapa might change their mind at the last minute and then the west might not need/want to sue, I can buy that.
Further down they say this:
"the Air
Line Pilots Association (“ALPA”) was decertified and a new
union, the U.S. Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA”), certi-
fied precisely to frustrate implementation of the Nicolau
Agreement and to negotiate a CBA with U.S. Airways that
favors the East Pilots."

So they get it. What makes you think that the same facts applied to dfr2 in a "ripe" situation will lead to a different outcome?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

We won the first dfr case due to overwhelming evidence. Just read the 9th's decision again and here is the first paragraph under discussion:

"[1] Although considerable time, effort, and expense have
been devoted to the merits of Plaintiffs’ DFR claim before
both this Court and the district court, we are without jurisdic-
tion to address the merits of the claim unless it is ripe. See S.
Pac. Transp. Co. v. City of L.A., 922 F.2d 498, 502 (9th Cir.
1990). We review ripeness de novo. See Manufactured Home
Cmtys. Inc. v. City of San Jose, 420 F.3d 1022, 1025 (9th Cir.
2005); Laub v. U.S. Dep’t of Interior, 342 F.3d 1080, 1084
(9th Cir. 2003). If the claim before us is not ripe, we must dis-
miss. See S. Pac. Transp., 922 F.2d at 502. "

So none of the dfr merits were even looked at by the 9th.

Here is what it says a little further down:

"Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3 "

So they are saying that usapa might change their mind at the last minute and then the west might not need/want to sue, I can buy that.
Further down they say this:
"the Air
Line Pilots Association (“ALPA”) was decertified and a new
union, the U.S. Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA”), certi-
fied precisely to frustrate implementation of the Nicolau
Agreement and to negotiate a CBA with U.S. Airways that
favors the East Pilots."

So they get it. What makes you think that the same facts applied to dfr2 in a "ripe" situation will lead to a different outcome?

You won't win the next one. USAPA has to represent the best interest of BOTH groups, east AND west. Unless you can prove that the Nic is in the best interest of ALL of LCC's pilots, which you can't.

It's over. It was over the day the NMB declared the pilot group to be one group for representation purposes, not two. The last quote you use was from the dissenting opinion, which, in essence, means nothing.

 

[AWA320]

Well that's interesting. Why did you work for Transtates and Air Wisconsin then? Why didn't you become a lawyer? Man you picked the wrong career Yogi 😉

Because I enjoy flying and wanted to make a career of it. I paid my dues with respect to flying and buliding time the right way. Law is always and option.

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

Many of us happen to know lawyers. Like anything in life, some are better than others. I am an aquaintence of one of our ILWU attorneys and neighbor to a federal judge and two of our children are best friends. Since I started paying attention to your mess, my neighbor called the 9th's ruling, along with the motion to reconsider, en banc petition, the rule 60b joke and the motion to transfer. The Ferderal rules provide comments to the rules to aid judges in decisions and he was pretty emphatic about how it would turn out when I gave him some of the details. Granted he is a democrat and has a more liberal orientation but he was dead on. Of course, he would be the first to admit he has been wrong and had decisions overturned but in these instances I was impressed on how closely he called things. I have had less interaction with our union attorney but he shared similar thoughts.

Both of them share your union's opinion that the dicta included in the 9th's decision was meant to inform the parties of what view the court would take with a refiling of the case or a similar case were it to return to them. I am not saying he is going to be right but he certainly has called much of what occurred dead on. I am no lawyer and have never claimed to be like some on here and only relay what I consider to be valid legal opinion. The only opinions I have offered that are my own are on the nature of unions and seniority. I think you all are going to find that the Declaratory Judgement complaint filed by your company will not make it to trial because the 9th has already made clear, the union is free to bargain and there is no way a court can grant some blanket immunity for an unknown complaint without running afoul of the ripeness doctrine.

What you will probably see when the dismissals begin is dicta in those judgements that reiterate much of the 9th's opinion as well as education that any agreement may be modified, your transition agreement is a placeholder agreement until a completed single contract replaces it. The terms and conditions to complete it are between the company and the Collective Bargaining Agent and that your company owes no Duty of Fair Representation, and in large part is indemnified by the Union being the responsible party. Your own company has been emphatic the seniority is the unions deal and as long as it meets the conditions of the company to not create significant training costs, it meets the conditions of your Transition Agreement and they could care less the makeup.

Just a couple of problems. A DJ NEVER goes to trial its a ruling on the issue right there. The court is not there to offer indemnity as thats not what the court is for. Now without that indemnity ask your friend what happens then. I think you might find the answer suprising.

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

Whenever I read posts by AWA320, Ames, and some others, I just click on the link below. Then, I get it:

The West theme music

There's even a pic of a member of the AOL legal team. A bloodsucking clown.

Hey there butterball! I see you are still clueless!!

AWA320

 

[767jetz]

We won the first dfr case due to overwhelming evidence.

What makes you think that the same facts applied to dfr2 in a "ripe" situation will lead to a different outcome?

Answer: Insanity. Repeating the same behavior while expecting a different result.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Just a couple of problems. A DJ NEVER goes to trial its a ruling on the issue right there. The court is not there to offer indemnity as thats not what the court is for. Now without that indemnity ask your friend what happens then. I think you might find the answer suprising.

AWA320

He's right and you're not. He spelled it all out for you.

Again, cue the clown music.

 

[sumadarson]

Post fodase, on 09 December 2010 - 08:42 PM, said:
"We won the first dfr case due to overwhelming evidence.

What makes you think that the same facts applied to dfr2 in a "ripe" situation will lead to a different outcome?"

Answer: Insanity. Repeating the same behavior while expecting a different result.

Fodase is referring to repeating the same behavior and expecting the same result, not "Repeating the same behavior while expecting a different result." as you exclaim in your post. Same result DFR1 DFR 2 dismissed

 

[nic4us]

You won't win the next one. USAPA has to represent the best interest of BOTH groups, east AND west. Unless you can prove that the Nic is in the best interest of ALL of LCC's pilots, which you can't.

Unless the company is willing to risk a couple hundred million, there is likely not going to be a next one.

No Nic=No contract.

Unless you can prove that it is in ALL pilots best intrest to remain on the industry's lowest pay and draconian work rules, then usapa has their work cut out for them if they think they can stop eventual Nic implementation.

Still waiting to hear what the West pilots are trying to steal.

 

[sumadarson]

The emotional level of the west is at its peak. All part of the healing process.

 

[767jetz]

You are a pilot for United.

Yes.

You are an ALPA rep.

Nope. Wrong again.

You have something in common with america west pilots.

Before my time. Barely out of college at the time.

What's the matter nostradamus? You don't like when someone has your number and shows it to the world? Does the term NPD strike a chord?

What sumadarson has in common with NPD and the serial bully

There are so many, but these are my favorite bullet points:

- is a convincing, practised liar and when called to account, will make up anything spontaneously to fit their needs at that moment

- relies on mimicry, repetition and regurgitation to convince others that he or she is both a "normal" human being

- fails to fulfil commitments

- has a deep-seated contempt of clients in contrast to his or her professed compassion

- flits from topic to topic so that you come away feeling you've never had a proper conversation

- refuses to be specific and never gives a straight answer

- is evasive and has a Houdini-like ability to escape accountability

- undermines and destroys anyone who the bully perceives to be an adversary, a potential threat, or who can see through the bully's mask

- is quick to discredit and neutralise anyone who can talk knowledgeably about antisocial or sociopathic behaviors

- may pursue a vindictive vendetta against anyone who dares to held them accountable

- is also quick to belittle, undermine, denigrate and discredit anyone who calls, attempts to call, or might call the bully to account

- is constantly imposing on others a false reality made up of distortion and fabrication

- appears to have a short, selective memory and often cannot or will not remember what they said, did, or committed to more than 24 hours ago - but is always able to remember your faults, often from years ago

- is unwilling to apologise for mistakes, except occasionally when witnesses are present

- is quick to blame others

- is inflexible and unable to evaluate options and alternatives

This is good stuff folks. Reading it really does explain who the west is dealing with.