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US Pilots Labor Discussion

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So they get it. What makes you think that the same facts applied to dfr2 in a "ripe" situation will lead to a different outcome?


You do realize that the 9th quoted a SCOTUS standard or threshold by which a DFR is judged... one that Wake didn't allow the jury to hear? If the same facts are judged against a different standard, what makes you think the outcome will be the same?
 
.....because he is enjoying every CEO's wet dream, saving hundreds of millions of dollars while fostering this "dispute". When he needs to get something done you will see the Nic.


No disagreement there. I wouldn't bet your life savings on the Nic as the end result. I'm not saying DOH is a sure thing either. But none the less, it sure gives Parker many options, like fragmentation........

FIGN......pronounced "fine"........everything is "fine" on the East side......Fear, Ignorance, Greed, Narcissism......LMAO!!!!!!!!!
 
Because I enjoy flying and wanted to make a career of it. I paid my dues with respect to flying and buliding time the right way. Law is always and option.

AWA320


Personally, I would have chosen the legal career over the flying job. Did I imply that you didn't pay your dues?
 
No Land,

When it comes to delay, Parker et al make out fine. I think it is a failure of leadership not to take a stand on this issue. Either the Nic is the list, or the Nic is not the list, and whatever the union proposes goes. Make a decision already boys, let us move on, there may be litigation, but we need to be moving forward instead of being stuck in limbo.

I asked L. Hogg the other day the very question you propose here, namely why can we not get a contract and have an LOA that states there will be no cross bidding, east/west in any permanent bid until section 22 is determined via _____________ insert appropriate term, court - union - management decision, whatever, at a later date and get us a contract that gives us improvements because we will have a period of "implementation" anyway. Our illustrious managerial group has yet to determine - nor (gasp) purchase a new crew scheduling system. His answer to the crew scheduling system is that they would have to program it for both east and west contracts then reprogram for a joint contract and that costs money and would be a waste, but his only comment on getting a contract without section 22 determined was that it wouldn't pass ratification.

We can get a new contract and by the time it is reprogrammed for the joint contract (12 to 18 months) then allow cross bidding, we should have an answer on the seniority system list and we can move on finally. This food fight over seniority is getting beyond ridiculous. The company has been a facilitator of this divisive fight. It is time for a new contract.


Good Post!!!! I agree with your thoughts above!!!
 
A hollow victory when you take into consideration the fact that your 767 widebody international rate is 50/hr less than what Air Tran pilots are getting flying narrowbody 737's domestically. Oh well low pay to the last day, right Bob ?

CV


"Hollow victory", hardly for Bob. He's a class act. Yeah, I know him. He can't be bribed........
 
No disagreement there. I wouldn't bet your life savings on the Nic as the end result. I'm not saying DOH is a sure thing either. But none the less, it sure gives Parker many options, like fragmentation........

FIGN......pronounced "fine"........everything is "fine" on the East side......Fear, Ignorance, Greed, Narcissism......LMAO!!!!!!!!!

I am not betting my life savings but, in a way, I'm betting my career. I agree that the east is FIGN, and small, and cowardly, and malicious....
 
I am not betting my life savings but, in a way, I'm betting my career. I agree that the east is FIGN, and small, and cowardly, and malicious....


Speaking of your "career", how are things out West? When is your next equipment Bid? When one of your pilots retires, what kind of move up does that create?

......now we are "malicious".......LMAO!!!!!!!!!!! Keep up the entertainment, PLEASE!!!!!!!
 
Many of us happen to know lawyers. Like anything in life, some are better than others. I am an aquaintence of one of our ILWU attorneys and neighbor to a federal judge and two of our children are best friends. Since I started paying attention to your mess, my neighbor called the 9th's ruling, along with the motion to reconsider, en banc petition, the rule 60b joke and the motion to transfer. The Ferderal rules provide comments to the rules to aid judges in decisions and he was pretty emphatic about how it would turn out when I gave him some of the details. Granted he is a democrat and has a more liberal orientation but he was dead on. Of course, he would be the first to admit he has been wrong and had decisions overturned but in these instances I was impressed on how closely he called things. I have had less interaction with our union attorney but he shared similar thoughts.

Both of them share your union's opinion that the dicta included in the 9th's decision was meant to inform the parties of what view the court would take with a refiling of the case or a similar case were it to return to them. I am not saying he is going to be right but he certainly has called much of what occurred dead on. I am no lawyer and have never claimed to be like some on here and only relay what I consider to be valid legal opinion. The only opinions I have offered that are my own are on the nature of unions and seniority. I think you all are going to find that the Declaratory Judgement complaint filed by your company will not make it to trial because the 9th has already made clear, the union is free to bargain and there is no way a court can grant some blanket immunity for an unknown complaint without running afoul of the ripeness doctrine.

What you will probably see when the dismissals begin is dicta in those judgements that reiterate much of the 9th's opinion as well as education that any agreement may be modified, your transition agreement is a placeholder agreement until a completed single contract replaces it. The terms and conditions to complete it are between the company and the Collective Bargaining Agent and that your company owes no Duty of Fair Representation, and in large part is indemnified by the Union being the responsible party. Your own company has been emphatic the seniority is the unions deal and as long as it meets the conditions of the company to not create significant training costs, it meets the conditions of your Transition Agreement and they could care less the makeup.
Nice work ROACLT, your posts are very informative. The last paragraph summed up all of it. Hence the Parker statement- THIS IS FOR YOU GUYS TO DECIDE......."
 
We won the first dfr case due to overwhelming evidence. Just read the 9th's decision again and here is the first paragraph under discussion:

"[1] Although considerable time, effort, and expense have
been devoted to the merits of Plaintiffs’ DFR claim before
both this Court and the district court, we are without jurisdic-
tion to address the merits of the claim unless it is ripe.
See S.
Pac. Transp. Co. v. City of L.A., 922 F.2d 498, 502 (9th Cir.
1990). We review ripeness de novo. See Manufactured Home
Cmtys. Inc. v. City of San Jose, 420 F.3d 1022, 1025 (9th Cir.
2005); Laub v. U.S. Dep’t of Interior, 342 F.3d 1080, 1084
(9th Cir. 2003). If the claim before us is not ripe, we must dis-
miss. See S. Pac. Transp., 922 F.2d at 502. "

So none of the dfr merits were even looked at by the 9th.

Here is what it says a little further down:

"Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3 "

So they are saying that usapa might change their mind at the last minute and then the west might not need/want to sue, I can buy that.
Further down they say this:
"the Air
Line Pilots Association (“ALPA”) was decertified and a new
union, the U.S. Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA”), certi-
fied precisely to frustrate implementation of the Nicolau
Agreement and to negotiate a CBA with U.S. Airways that
favors the East Pilots."

So they get it. What makes you think that the same facts applied to dfr2 in a "ripe" situation will lead to a different outcome?


Are you a leader in AOL? If so, and you are so confident, why not do everything humanly possible to get to DFR II?
 
You may have confused yourself when you read his post. His point wasn't about his pay.

Maybe his wasn't. As a matter of fact, given the abysmal hourly rate, I'm sure it wasn't . But mine certainly was. Youre not going to deny that good ol'Capt Bob is getting less per hr heading out over the dark and stormy North Atlantic every week in his geriatric widebody than his narrowbody counterpart flying domestically over at Air Tran is, now are you ?

cv
 
"Hollow victory", hardly for Bob. He's a class act. Yeah, I know him. He can't be bribed........



Yup....I'm sure he's a real peach to fly with. Obviously I never had the pleasure to meet him ,but he always seemed like the consumate gentlelman from what I gathered from reading his posts on this webboard and others. Too bad you guys forced him to finish his carrer at less than narrobody Air Tran pay by walking away from the joint negotiations several yers ago when we ahere still under the ALPA banner.

Poor Bob. Less than Air Tran pay to the last day 🙁
 
I am finished. Do not forget to put your mask back on.

You were finished before you got started NOSTRADAMUS. Just like your leash handlers changed their name to avoid so have you but we all know who you. Yeah its best you quit now as you were losing this battle anyway.

Next up oldie the butterball!!

AWA320
 
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