US Pilots Labor Discussion

[oldiebutgoody]

Dont tell Oldie, he doesnt believe that AAA had over 40% of its pilot group on furlough!!

AWA320

Because oldie knows it didn't. Or that no one promised you a contact in 6 weeks, 90 days or whatever.

Keep making it up.

 

[No Land Green]

Nicolau addressed this: they didn't bring a job to the merger. No one got stapled. They were placed pretty much where their relative position was at the time of the merger.

Aqua,

My opinion only is that a pilot with a seniority number on either list brings a job to any merger. Maybe not that specific day in time. A pilot who is not hired, read no seniority number, definitely does not bring a job to the merger. You have to look into the future, because one never knows when you may find yourself in that position.

A furloughed pilot who had years of active service was stapled because his/her active service was zeroed out. With the high attrition rate, there could have been ways to "compromise" other than zeroing out active service.

We can agree to disagree, I'm just putting it in a different light, that's all.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Once a matter is submitted to a tribunal, our personal opinions matter no more.

 

[No Land Green]

Here is the issue, Dave O'dell brought a job and was flying for the company while 1472 of the east pilots were sitting home without jobs! 958 east ilots below Dave Odell?? What aircraft were they flying on the day prior to the merger announcement??? Is funny how the AAA merger committee was not at all concerned with the MDA people until after the award came out. Now they are your best friends.

People flying for AAA MAINLINE and not MDA or furloughed were accounted for by your merger committee. If they were not flying a 737 A319,320,321 or 330 or 757,767 on the day before the merger was announced then they should not be ahead of Odell period.


AWA320

320,

I think I addressed this in my response to aqua.

I can't alone make up for the past injustices that have happened on the East side and I'm not just referring to the NIC Award. However, I'm just trying to shed a different light on some of these issues that may prevent the younger LCC Pilots from making bad decisions in the future.

None of us are immune from misfortune in this industry. Today's gold can quickly turn into a pile of crap.

 

[No Land Green]

Once a matter is submitted to a tribunal, our personal opinions matter no more.

I'm not saying you are wrong above. However, all our opinions do matter.

 

[cleardirect]

I talked with one of the East Wye River participants. He told me there was no compromise on the part of the West. Without compromise, it will be all or nothing for both sides.


I agree that with your other sentiments above in regards to BPR votes.


IMHO, the biggest mistake was not giving guys credit for active service in some capacity. There are sane minds on the East side, but there has to be give in order to take, for both sides.

All we ever hear from the east what the west has to give.

What is the east willing to give the west. Because you do know that COMPROMISE is a 2 way street. Not once has the east ever offered anything.

 

[BoeingBoy]

UA/US in 2000 ?

USAPA and it's C&BL's weren't a gleam in anyone's eye back then...

Jim

 

[No Land Green]

All we ever hear from the east what the west has to give.

What is the east willing to give the west. Because you do know that COMPROMISE is a 2 way street. Not once has the east ever offered anything.

Of course "COMPROMISE is a 2 way street".

What is it that you want from the East, besides the Nic #? I'm being sincere here, absent the section 22 issue, what do you want from the East?

I think we can both agree that both sides brought hubs and aircraft to the party. Given the relatively static size of both sides, fortunately for the min fleet provision, the only thing either side brings is upward movement through retirements. The East offers retirements more so than the West does, that's pretty much a fact.

The only thing the East has is attrition to offer, sans fleet growth. NIC gave you that, more than he did to the East Pilots.

 

[cleardirect]

I talked with one of the East Wye River participants. He told me there was no compromise on the part of the West. Without compromise, it will be all or nothing for both sides.


I agree that with your other sentiments above in regards to BPR votes.


IMHO, the biggest mistake was not giving guys credit for active service in some capacity. There are sane minds on the East side, but there has to be give in order to take, for both sides.

The time to compromise was during the arbitration. These are the transcripts from that arbitration. The west offered solutions. What did the east offer AFTER the award at Wye river? The west did not have to move. It was the east that was asking for something it was the east that needed to make the compromise. what did the east offer? DOH/LOS. The same thing you stuck with during the arbitration. Your lawyer said it.

we are comfortable with our proposal as it is

If your side was comfotable with it why now do you guys want to compromise?

CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: Yes. The last time we
10 met, in a somewhat smaller room, where even if it
11 was smaller we were trying to figure out a way how
12 to negotiate a treaty in this room, and this room I
13 guess is perfect for it.
14 The board asked both sides to reflect and
15 to consider what we have said and to come back to
16 discuss any revised positions that they had, that
17 they intended to make, and to present. We already
18 have a document from the America West pilots.
19 We would like to hear first, this morning,
20 from the US Air pilots as to what their response is
21 and then anything that America West wants to add,
22 and then we are going to take it from there.
3040
1 So Dan, how do you want to proceed in that
2 regard?
3 MR. KATZ: Well, I guess the first thing I
4 would like to do is respond to the submission that
5 we received electronically last night from the
6 America West pilots, and just say a word or two
7 about that. Number one --
8 CHAIRMAN NICOLAU: That is a little
9 backward, but I mean if you want to proceed that
10 way.
11 MR. KATZ: I would prefer, unless there is
12 a problem with that. I can start out by saying that
13 we don't have a modification of our proposal in any
14 respect that we are prepared to make at this time.
15 And if it makes more sense logically to start from
16 that I am happy to do that.
17 We have considered fully the observations
18 of the panel with regard to both side's proposals.
19 We have given careful study to the issue. We have
20 consulted with MEC and the advisors and done quite a
21 bit of analysis, and. So I think that is probably a
3041
1 good place to start.

 

[AWA320]

Aqua,

My opinion only is that a pilot with a seniority number on either list brings a job to any merger. Maybe not that specific day in time. A pilot who is not hired, read no seniority number, definitely does not bring a job to the merger. You have to look into the future, because one never knows when you may find yourself in that position.

A furloughed pilot who had years of active service was stapled because his/her active service was zeroed out. With the high attrition rate, there could have been ways to "compromise" other than zeroing out active service.

We can agree to disagree, I'm just putting it in a different light, that's all.

No sir a seniority number is a far cry different than a job!

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

320,

I think I addressed this in my response to aqua.

I can't alone make up for the past injustices that have happened on the East side and I'm not just referring to the NIC Award. However, I'm just trying to shed a different light on some of these issues that may prevent the younger LCC Pilots from making bad decisions in the future.

None of us are immune from misfortune in this industry. Today's gold can quickly turn into a pile of crap.

I agree 100% with your statement about the issues concerning the east pilot group. Now remember no one on the west was the cause of that misfortune yet many on the east feel that we in the west should pay for what happend to them with our careers. What is usapa teaching the younger generation, that's its ok to go back on your word so long as you feel that you have had misfortune in your career? There is no greater misfortune than to educated our young in deceit.

AWA320

 

[No Land Green]

The time to compromise was during the arbitration. These are the transcripts from that arbitration. The west offered solutions. What did the east offer AFTER the award at Wye river? The west did not have to move. It was the east that was asking for something it was the east that needed to make the compromise. what did the east offer? DOH/LOS. The same thing you stuck with during the arbitration. Your lawyer said it.

If your side was comfotable with it why now do you guys want to compromise?

I brought up compromise on this board, only for discussion, since the court system will determine the final outcome. I guess it is a waste of time in a way.

I was briefed about what was offered at Wye River by the East, but not sure if it is public. Not lying, just not sure if it is for public consumption.

Since I was not a member of the Merger Committee I can't speak for what could have been compromised or what either side wasn't budging on that drove it to arbitration.

 

[No Land Green]

No sir a seniority number is a far cry different than a job!

AWA320

Let's just agree to disagree on that statement. But I feel a furloughed pilot with a seniority number would tell you different, even a West Furloughed Pilot.

I know some of your Pilot's hired in 2000 were furloughed for a while.

 

[No Land Green]

Now remember no one on the west was the cause of that misfortune yet many on the east feel that we in the west should pay for what happend to them with our careers. What is usapa teaching the younger generation, that's its ok to go back on your word so long as you feel that you have had misfortune in your career? There is no greater misfortune than to educated our young in deceit.

AWA320

You are not entirely wrong above and I agree with most of it.

I think the problem is where you put one sides career over the other sides. Is this a moving target? How do you give everyone the same career? Do we reset everyone's careers every so often depending on retirements, growth, shrinkage, profit, loss?

 

[BoeingBoy]

But I feel a furloughed pilot with a seniority number would tell you different, even a West Furloughed Pilot.

If they had a job, they wouldn't be furloughed. They had a job at some point in the past, they may again have a job at some point in the future (and rights to any such job before new hires), but at the time they didn't have a job.

I guess one could just as well say that someone never hired would have a job at some point. Does that mean that they have a job at a specific point in time so should be integrated as active pilots?

Jim