US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

Reed,

Good post. I agree with you that alpa set themselves up for failure by distancing themselves from the process from beginning to end. I hope that more on both sides of this issue can converse in a civilized manner.

I'm currently in DUB on an overnight and I saw something in St. Peter's Cathedral that I think is pertinent. I'm no good at posting links but google "Door of reconcilation Dublin Ireland" or "13 door of reconcilation Dublin Ireland" and tell me what you think.

Regards,

Bob Moore

Here's a thought Bob (and let's see if you have the courage to back up your words and proffer a gesture of reconciliation at the next BPR meeting):

reimburse the Cactus 18 for the 100k they spent fighting a malicous RICO suit filed by USAPA.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You may want to reflect on your initial emotions at the time. The emotions of accepting what was and is the new reality. USAPA and the East pilots are on the wrong side of this one, for the wrong reasons. Think about it.

The West is wedged in a very secure position. No one is going to screw with a binding arbitration. Tashima felt that perhaps there was a way to come up with something different than Nicolau that wouldn't be a DFR and in a purely theoretical sense, it is possible. But in the practical sense it's impossible. The hypothetical quickly reaches the absurd: ie pay the West $300 an hour with furlough protection but we get DOH. DFR? That's up to a judge or a jury in the actual DFR trial. USAPA is free to proffer something other than the Nic, but lingering out there is their duty to fairly represent all pilots, East and West. Whatever is in the final product will be compared to the Nicolau, and that's why Tashima's deference to the union in theory has no realistic application in reality. Seniority is a zero sum equation; better the East then it will be at the expense of the West. Any monkeying with S22 will result in another DFR trial and this time the company will be involved and they can be defending why they knowing disregarded the arbitration process and result that was in the Transition Agreement and why they knowingly agreed to modify what was in the Transition Agreement when the other party - the union - was likely committing a breach of its DFR. The company really is in a jam thanks to the 9th. Negotiate with USAPA and they'll face a Hybrid DFR trial. Don't negotiate and they're in violation of the RLA. This damned if they do and damned if they don't is apparent to anyone and it explains why, contrary to what Kommander Kleary is telling the Easties, the company's complaint is ripe and will survive a motion to dismiss.

Oh the tangled web USAPA has woven. Doug has told you Easties flat out in the latest Crew News that the company will appeal if they don't get the absolute protection they are looking for. Can't say that I blame him. Standy by for many more years under LOA 93. We in the West can care less.

 

[Reed Richards]

Reed,

Good post. I agree with you that alpa set themselves up for failure by distancing themselves from the process from beginning to end. I hope that more on both sides of this issue can converse in a civilized manner.

I'm currently in DUB on an overnight and I saw something in St. Peter's Cathedral that I think is pertinent. I'm no good at posting links but google "Door of reconcilation Dublin Ireland" or "13 door of reconcilation Dublin Ireland" and tell me what you think.

Regards,

Bob Moore

Thanks Bob, and I did look it up. That philosophy has worked well for me in more social situations, such as with neighbors and family. Not to be a Grinch, but I just don't see these groups ever sharing cockpits. The waters are just too poisoned. Maybe I will be proven wrong.

Best to you and yours,

RR

 

[Freebird]

Thanks Bob, and I did look it up. That philosophy has worked well for me in more social situations, such as with neighbors and family. Not to be a Grinch, but I just don't see these groups ever sharing cockpits. The waters are just too poisoned. Maybe I will be proven wrong.

Best to you and yours,

RR

That would all trace back to the East trying to avoid Binding Arbitration. You can thank the GREED and DECEIT of USAPA's founders for building up expectations back East of imposing Date of Hire on the West. Or is it that the East is just too unprofessional to work with any other group. Do you think American will welcome you with open arms?


USAPA = We are the root of this problem.

 

[LSS]

That would all trace back to the East trying to avoid Binding Arbitration. You can thank the GREED and DECEIT of USAPA's founders for building up expectations back East of imposing Date of Hire on the West. Or is it that the East is just too unprofessional to work with any other group. Do you think American will welcome you with open arms?


USAPA = We are the root of this problem.

Blah... blah... blah... greed * deceit*.... blah... blah... blah... if you don't have anything NEW to offer... why don't you just stop... we will never be able to make you see things differently... and you will NEVER change our opinion that the NIC was a west windfall...

PS... on USAPA's worst day, they are 1000 times better than ALPA!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

That would all trace back to the East trying to avoid Binding Arbitration. You can thank the GREED and DECEIT of USAPA's founders for building up expectations back East of imposing Date of Hire on the West. Or is it that the East is just too unprofessional to work with any other group. Do you think American will welcome you with open arms?


USAPA = We are the root of this problem.

Nobody is messin' with your "binding arbitration". ALPA IS STILL bound to present and defend the Nic as a bargaining position. Now you get to tell us just whom they're gonna present it to. Any ideas?

 

[Captain Underpants]

The West is wedged in a very secure position. No one is going to screw with a binding arbitration. Tashima felt that perhaps there was a way to come up with something different than Nicolau that wouldn't be a DFR and in a purely theoretical sense, it is possible.

Aqua,

You are assuming that the Nicolau award is binding and that there is a path to get it implemented. Both assumptions are false.

As you know you can't legally base a contractual right or damages on speculative events that may or may not occur. The only way any Nicolau rights could ever be realized would be through a long chain of highly speculative events occuring in sequence without interuption. None of the required events has occured and the chain has already been irretrievably broken. Just to name a few:

...You have lost the system board claim to contractual rights to Nicolau
...You have lost the DFR and damages claims against USAPA and lost the injunction to try to force Nic
...No Judge has denied USAPA's rights to negotiate, the pilots rights to vote for a fair contract, or the pilots rights to strike should self help be reached
...It was a stipulated fact in court and the 9th circuit recognized that East pilots would not ratify a contract containing Nic

The solution must be something other than Nic because realizing any claimed Nic rights is impossible.

Finding a seniority solution that is not the Nic and does not violate DFR laws is easy.....All the other unions in this same merger have already found the solution.

underpants

 

[sumadarson]

USAPA threatened peoples jobs with Section 29 actions. Sounds like a great "union".

I'll ask you specifically, why is USAPA afraid to vote on a contract with the Nicolau Award in it? Are they afraid it would.....pass? If not, prove it. You guys are full of wisdom, experience and oh yeah, umm resolve. You should have no problem defeating it. Yet your fear dictates otherwise.

What is there about USAPA that a West pilot should "like"? You failed to live up to Binding Arbitration. You filed RICO suits against West Pilots. You want to impose DOH and destroy the Wests careers. Your Communication Chair throws barbs and slurs against the West. You have Flt 1549 pilots lie under oath against the West. The list goes on.

USAPA = Like ALPA, only worse.

Every union section 29’s freeloaders, then your very own company fires you.

Read the 9th circuit court decision. It tells you a contract with the Nicolau fiasco attached is not necessary. The internal arbitration did not meet association guidelines. This is now water under the Wye River bridge. By the way thanks for spending two million dollars to prove this.

The Rico was dismissed for not meeting certain legal and jurisdiction reasons only. The west pilots sent feces in the mail, committed other vandalism and mayhem, then threatened bodily harm on one of their own pilots that wanted to work with USAPA.

Please provide quotes of the East pilots who flew 1549 to safety, that are lies.

This talk is a waste of time. You lost, get over it and move on is my suggestion.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

The Rico was dismissed for not meeting certain legal and jurisdiction reasons only. The west pilots sent feces in the mail, committed other vandalism and mayhem, then threatened bodily harm on one of their own pilots that wanted to work with USAPA.

That's how usapa sells it. Any reading of the documents tells a very different story. Usapa tried to ruin people who did none of the above. It's not exactly something I would think to many people would be proud of it they knew the whole story.

 

[Freebird]

Every union section 29’s freeloaders, then your very own company fires you.

How many East pilots have been fired via Sec. 29?

Read the 9th circuit court decision. It tells you a contract with the Nicolau fiasco attached is not necessary. The internal arbitration did not meet association guidelines. This is now water under the Wye River bridge. By the way thanks for spending two million dollars to prove this.

It says the CBA may present an alternative so long as it doesnt harm its minority members (West) or a DFR will be UNQUESTIONABLY RIPE.

The Rico was dismissed for not meeting certain legal and jurisdiction reasons only. The west pilots sent feces in the mail, committed other vandalism and mayhem, then threatened bodily harm on one of their own pilots that wanted to work with USAPA.

Really. Can you prove a West pilot sent the feces? Maybe it was Cleary? Maybe it was Parker? Maybe it was Prater? Maybe it was Mutandis? Did you keep the sample? Did it ever really happen? Where is your proof? You're reaching. Just like your lawsuit. Dismissed with prejudice.

Please provide quotes of the East pilots who flew 1549 to safety, that are lies.

Go back and research Chesleys speech on integrity. And the cross exam that made him look like a bumbling idiot.

This talk is a waste of time. You lost, get over it and move on is my suggestion.

Binding Arbitration is a bitter pill to swallow is it?

USAPA = Still lying to ourselves.

 

[Freebird]

Nobody is messin' with your "binding arbitration". ALPA IS STILL bound to present and defend the Nic as a bargaining position. Now you get to tell us just whom they're gonna present it to. Any ideas?

Why are you still living under LOA93? Isnt ALPA on the hook for that one? Now that you are represented by USAPA, shouldnt all prior CBA's be void? You can really stick it to Parker with a new payscale. $300/hr per narrowbody C/O. Whats the hold-up? Is it that USAPA is toothless?

Get a contract with the Nicolau fully intact and you will have the horsepower to make changes on this property. The Majority vs. Minority shtick isnt working.


USAPA = Soon Mesa will be making more than the East.

 

[Freebird]

Blah... blah... blah... greed * deceit*.... blah... blah... blah... if you don't have anything NEW to offer... why don't you just stop... we will never be able to make you see things differently... and you will NEVER change our opinion that the NIC was a west windfall...

PS... on USAPA's worst day, they are 1000 times better than ALPA!

I guess that truth hurts so much that you are unwilling to listen. I have nothing NEW to offer? What are the rest of the clowns professing on this cesspool? But you're right about one thing. We will never change your opinion. Thats fine. Binding Arbitration isnt based on your opinion. You freely entered into it knowing the outcome will be binding upon you and your sisters.

Another question for you. How is it NOT a windfall for a 1996 East Hire who was on furlough, while a 1996 West hire is a Captain, to return as a line holding Captain?


USAPA = Thieves in action. No Honor.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I guess that truth hurts so much that you are unwilling to listen. I have nothing NEW to offer? What are the rest of the clowns professing on this cesspool? But you're right about one thing. We will never change your opinion. Thats fine. Binding Arbitration isnt based on your opinion. You freely entered into it knowing the outcome will be binding upon you and your sisters.

Another question for you. How is it NOT a windfall for a 1996 East Hire who was on furlough, while a 1996 West hire is a Captain, to return as a line holding Captain?


USAPA = Thieves in action. No Honor.

That's what the C&R's are for, but for now enjoy your attrition, makes no difference to us ! Look at it this way you don't have to share those 50 retirements a year with us EASTIES, you can tell us how worthless we are on LOA93 and not have to worry about any time zone changes in EUROPE, or what your budget will be for the upcoming year because you already know what your salary will be maybe for a very long time! Heck we do! MM!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I guess that truth hurts so much that you are unwilling to listen. I have nothing NEW to offer? What are the rest of the clowns professing on this cesspool? But you're right about one thing. We will never change your opinion. Thats fine. Binding Arbitration isnt based on your opinion. You freely entered into it knowing the outcome will be binding upon you and your sisters.

Another question for you. How is it NOT a windfall for a 1996 East Hire who was on furlough, while a 1996 West hire is a Captain, to return as a line holding Captain?


USAPA = Thieves in action. No Honor.

Not even USAPA is planning on that. Go read the C&Rs on USAPA's website. It specifically prevents such things.

But noooo. It's always better to make stuff up and whine about it.

 

[767one]

Thanks Bob, and I did look it up. That philosophy has worked well for me in more social situations, such as with neighbors and family. Not to be a Grinch, but I just don't see these groups ever sharing cockpits. The waters are just too poisoned. Maybe I will be proven wrong.

Best to you and yours,

RR

Reed,

Thanks for taking the time to look it up. You are more than likely right that the waters are too poisoned but I still hope that someone from either side is brave enough to stick their arm through the hole in the door.

After this trip I'm on vacation so I'll be taking care of family matters. My mother has taken a turn for the worse and is in the hosptital now. I have been blessed to have my parents with me for my whole life (63 years tomorrow) so I am a lucky man!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours,

Bob Moore