US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Your under assumption of myself and the Easts pilots to have the ability and discipline to read and comprehend, has up to this point contributed your downfall.

What?

If you say you can read and comprehend I would have to question your ability to write the English language.

 

[nic4us]

Yeah but he can still give as much as he wants to Leonidas. USAPA is limited to how much they can collect.

Whether or not they made the 90 day to a contract promise, another promise usapa made was that dues would be lowered.

Other than the mailing you all recieved out of the generosity of our hearts, 99% of all money collected by AOL goes to legal defense. There is only one expense.

usapa on the other hand is violating its DFR by dropping West grievences, why, whats the matter, can't afford to represent your pilots there usapa?

 

[sumadarson]

When was Seham admonished?

What happened to your 190 arbitration coup?

What is happening on your new legal interpretation of a frivolous declaratory suit by Usairways, being a no indemnity suit?

You are doing a disservice to your group of america west pilots you rely on for funds with your weak spin.

Let your conscience be your guide is not great advice for you at this point in time.

 

[sumadarson]

An article composed by a west pilot that would have gotten them an A in English Class.

 

[Reed Richards]

Welll....don't wet your shorts quite yet. This only indicates that at least ONE justice wants to hear more. And it certainly does NOT provide a definitive resolution by any stretch of the imagination.

Interesting article on Supreme Court petition procedures:

Petitioning the Supreme Court

That is indeed an outstanding article. I was cutting and pasting ready to post with some of the points it made..and then it hit me. Lee Seham already covered the high points in his brief to SCOTUS.

We have two Federal Courts (SFO and CLT) in AGREEMENT about ripeness.

What we also have here is "internal SCOTUS affairs" going on. Unions don't mess with their internal affairs, they don't mess with ours.

My comfort pillow (see superheroes have feelings too) that always gets me through these times of supposed indecision..is Membership ratification. The only way we would have lost that is staying with ALPA.

1) Getting out of ALPA..CHECK

RR

 

[cleardirect]

That is indeed an outstanding article. I was cutting and pasting ready to post with some of the points it made..and then it hit me. Lee Seham already covered the high points in his brief to SCOTUS.

We have two Federal Courts (SFO and CLT) in AGREEMENT about ripeness.

What we also have here is "internal SCOTUS affairs" going on. Unions don't mess with their internal affairs, they don't mess with ours.

My comfort pillow (see superheroes have feelings too) that always gets me through these times of supposed indecision..is Membership ratification. The only way we would have lost that is staying with ALPA.

1) Getting out of ALPA..CHECK

RR

Now what?

Got out of the frying pan. Check

We will soon approach 3 years of being out of ALPA. Are we better off? Is the east better off? I can tell you the west is not better off. It seems like the east guys think that shedding ALPA was the last step.

 

[PullUp]

Anyone who believes the NIC award is just bargaining proposal is dumber than a bag of hammers.

I know you're smarter than that.

Dude, step back, take a deep breath, and listen to what the 9th said.
There is no ripeness until you have a contract ratified.
Until that time, everything is negotiable...
When a contract is ratified, your issue of DFR may be ripe.
Will SCOTUS reverse what the 9th has ruled: "Not ripe yet".
....Ah, I don't think so.
And, yes, the issue IS will this case open up a can of worms and allow union members to sue over POTENTIAL outcomes (i.e., bargaining positions).
Happy Holidays.

 

[Reed Richards]

Probably need to rethink that statement. usapa has a limited amount of dues money. usapa is the CBA with representational duties other than trying to take seniority from the west. usapa does have to defend the contracts, BOTH, grievances, try and get a new contract. Worry about saftey and the variety of other legitimate union activities they are supposed to be doing. When you start spending 20-30-40% of your dues on a single issue other areas suffer. usapa will find themselves DFR'd for failure to represent. Don't go to aribtration because you can't afford it because you are spending it on a goose chase. DFR. Do you think the DOL might have an issue with a union spending 100% of it's members money on legal costs?

Yes there is a limit. A C&BL limit of how much usapa can tax.

No limit on how much the west can give.

If I were you guys. After reading the PBGC filing. I would be more worried about, the what, $1.5- $2 million being taxed for the PBGC without a return. You did read that right?

Clear, I will let the PBGC comments sit for another day..but your entire premise on what USAPA can and cannot "collect" and still do their job is flawed.

First, USAPA has done just fine taking care of all the other day to day affairs of the union, East and West..despite a yearlong dues boycott, litigation, crap in mail, and shutdown of its safety hotline by children kicked out of reform school. Even though USAPA cannot even get West pilots to show up in arbitrations in defense of West pilots… the affected pilots will be taken care of.

If the CBL limit needs to be raised, it will be raised by a vote of the majority. You will pay that. As I see it, you are already paying all your own legal costs by donation, and another third (of USAPA’s) by dues. We were able to raise over 350K in a matter of DAYS during the NMB election campaign, and we gave out the lanyards for free (instead of charging for badge backers.)

I am confident we can tap into this pilot group for donations if necessary. But it won’t be. In fact, absent the current litigation, we could all get a dues reduction.

It really has been impressive you have been able to continue to employ the services of your legal counsel (although based on recent results they need to lower their rates.) There is a dynamic going on there I still don't understand.

So, despite my ranting....my point is there really is not an issue of what each side can afford. You seem to be doing just fine, and we have the untapped resources of both your increased dues and our own donations.

RR

 

[cleardirect]

Clear, I will let the PBGC comments sit for another day..but your entire premise on what USAPA can and cannot "collect" and still do their job is flawed.

First, USAPA has done just fine taking care of all the other day to day affairs of the union, East and West..despite a yearlong dues boycott, litigation, crap in mail, and shutdown of its safety hotline by children kicked out of reform school. Even though USAPA cannot even get West pilots to show up in arbitrations in defense of West pilots… the affected pilots will be taken care of.

If the CBL limit needs to be raised, it will be raised by a vote of the majority. You will pay that. As I see it, you are already paying all your own legal costs by donation, and another third (of USAPA’s) by dues. We were able to raise over 350K in a matter of DAYS during the NMB election campaign, and we gave out the lanyards for free (instead of charging for badge backers.)

I am confident we can tap into this pilot group for donations if necessary. But it won’t be. In fact, absent the current litigation, we could all get a dues reduction.

It really has been impressive you have been able to continue to employ the services of your legal counsel (although based on recent results they need to lower their rates.) There is a dynamic going on there I still don't understand.

So, despite my ranting....my point is there really is not an issue of what each side can afford. You seem to be doing just fine, and we have the untapped resources of both your increased dues and our own donations.

RR

You really think there is an untapped donation pool out there from the east? Tell you what. Change the PBGC from mandatory to donations based and see what happens. Then let me know.

You want to raise the dues limit for an independent union to the highest in the country. This from a union that campaigned on doing it cheaper. that should be an interesting sale job.

My point being no one has unlimited resources. As usapa takes more and more from general funds it leaves less to do what a union is supposed to be doing. Like setting up a strike fund. Any extra left for that? usapa have a big cushion if there was another accident that required investigation? I have no idea what the Hudson crash cost but I am sure that it was a big chunk of money. If an organization has committed a large part of it's funds to legal. They aren't doing the job for the pilots. Any idea how usapa legal fees as a percentage of income matches up with the other unions?

Final point that is overlooked. If usapa would simply agree to use the bargain for final and binding arbitration all the litigation and legal expenses STOP. The company suit goes away. The Addington DFR case goes away. There would be no more need for high dues or higher dues or donation to a union for legal costs. usapa has it within it's power to end this now.

 

[traderjake]

Dude, step back, take a deep breath, and listen to what the 9th said.
There is no ripeness until you have a contract ratified.
Until that time, everything is negotiable...
When a contract is ratified, your issue of DFR may be ripe.
Will SCOTUS reverse what the 9th has ruled: "Not ripe yet".
....Ah, I don't think so.
And, yes, the issue IS will this case open up a can of worms and allow union members to sue over POTENTIAL outcomes (i.e., bargaining positions).
Happy Holidays.

The NIC award is the seniority list until it is replaced by another one in a new contract.

It's not just a bargaining position.

My judgement about your intelligence was wrong. The bag of hammers wins.

 

[Reed Richards]

The NIC award is the seniority list until it is replaced by another one in a new contract.

Agreed.

RR

 

[nycbusdriver]

The first big hurdle has been crossed... worried??? It sure sounds like it.

Not in the LEAST! I can't imagine for a second why I should be worried. My union dues are paying for this, as are yours.

Do you have money to pay lawyers for the Supreme Court if it gets that far?

Have you even paid the lawyers that filed your suit prematurely? Or, will they go to Washington pro bono for you?

Got another two million (or four million?) to flush down the crapper?

 

[nycbusdriver]

The NIC award is the seniority list until it is replaced by another one in a new contract.

It's not just a bargaining position.

Tell that to the west pilots on furlough.

My judgement about your intelligence was wrong. The bag of hammers wins.

You're fixated on this "hammers" thing. It appears the biggest one in the bag fell out onto your head.

 

[cleardirect]

Not in the LEAST! I can't imagine for a second why I should be worried. My union dues are paying for this, as are yours.

Do you have money to pay lawyers for the Supreme Court if it gets that far?

Have you even paid the lawyers that filed your suit prematurely? Or, will they go to Washington pro bono for you?

Got another two million (or four million?) to flush down the crapper?

Why are you so concerned about our lawyers getting paid? Are you afraid that you are going to get handed a bill for all of this?

What I find interesting is the west through donations have funded this law suit. On the other hand you east guys are forced through taxation to pay for your side along with us.Would you guys care to match us dollar for dollar on donations? Take the seniority fight away from general funds and make it a pay as you go deal? East pays for Seham, the west pays for Marty and Andy. We all get a dues reduction and we see exactly how much support each side has.

 

[BoeingBoy]

My judgement about your intelligence was wrong. The bag of hammers wins.

There's no need to insult hammers...

Jim